Microbevels

Personally I tend to believe the angle of the micro edge bevel shouldn't have any noticable difference in cutting performance, at the more common knife edge angles, just lets say 30 to 60 degrees included. If there is a noticable difference it probably isn't a micro bevel any longer. I mainly use a convex bevel but I'm guessing it is the same with flat micros.
 
I believe microbevels have their place and can be very effective when done right. I have also found truth in using a very high angle like 30+ deg. per side.

I have a post I am putting together that will be quite large with lots of pic's and some video's.... hope ya don't mind. :cool:
 
knifenut1013 said:
I believe microbevels have their place and can be very effective when done right. I have also found truth in using a very high angle like 30+ deg. per side.

I have a post I am putting together that will be quite large with lots of pic's and some video's.... hope ya don't mind. :cool:
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Bring it on! :thumbup:
 
Unless we are testing these mico-bevels on cardboard, plastic straps, fuzzy sticks, chopping, etc; this will turn into another "push cutting paper" thread. I would like to see a "micro vs convex" thread based on what steel was used, and at what degree of finish. This would be more helpful for those who use their knives in the real world, where their results cannot hide in the safety of the star trek like theoretical internet knife sharpening arena.
 
donny bee said:
Unless we are testing these mico-bevels on cardboard, plastic straps, fuzzy sticks, chopping, etc; this will turn into another "push cutting paper" thread. I would like to see a "micro vs convex" thread based on what steel was used, and at what degree of finish. This would be more helpful for those who use their knives in the real world, where their results cannot hide in the safety of the star trek like theoretical internet knife sharpening arena.
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This thread will become more informative than you think, I also think this part of the forum needs more sticky's anyways. Stickys for waterstones, ceramic stones, diamond stones and more for polishing compounds. So this thread does not derail I also think we need to keep it positive and stright to the facts. Micro bevels are more than a way to get your knife sharp its also a tool that can be used to change geometry and performance.
 
donny bee said:
Unless we are testing these mico-bevels on cardboard, plastic straps, fuzzy sticks, chopping, etc; this will turn into another "push cutting paper" thread. I would like to see a "micro vs convex" thread based on what steel was used, and at what degree of finish. This would be more helpful for those who use their knives in the real world, where their results cannot hide in the safety of the star trek like theoretical internet knife sharpening arena.
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Sounds great! When you get enough results, start a micro vs convex thread, and we'll do it! I'm interested to see what outcomes you get! :thumbup:
 
sodak said:
Sounds great! When you get enough results, start a micro vs convex thread, and we'll do it! I'm interested to see what outcomes you get! :thumbup:
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There are some here who are reconnized for their ability to sharpen," which i am not one", and who have the time that i do not have for such matters, I would defer to their findings, and would be interested in the results.
 
I use the white stone on my lansky to do a finish micro bevel. I read some well respected author that mentioned micro beveling. After a couple hours of earning my Lansky badge re-profiling my slippies and going through all of the stones at 20 degrees. I reluctantly raised the angle to 30 degrees against all of my natural instincts, and gently applied a micro bevel. To my delight, I finally popped some hair off the back of my hand. It was a bladeforum moment for me. Hence CJ is mb fan!
 
I put some 20 per side micros on my Caly 3 ZDP and CPM D2 Millie. Early returns are equal sharpness and cutting ability to a 15 per side micro, we'll see about any difference in edge retention over a little time. Both knives have a 10 per side main bevel (Caly 3 came that way for the from Spyderco). I will keep on doing this as I cycle through my knives by using the thicker micro compared to my normal 15 per side.

Mike
 
I put a 20°/25° on most of my user knives except big choppers. I still use 400/600 grit sandpaper on a mousepad for touch-ups and I don't have to hit the stones again for a long time. The real slicers get the strop and green abrasive after the sandpaper.
 
I like to grind with 3M lapping film at 36 deg. and then a convex 39 deg. micro bevel with 1 micron film on S30v Zt0300. Sharp and durable.
 
sodak said:
Bring it on! :thumbup:
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Its proving to be harder than I thought, truth is I suck at microbevels. I have been trying them on a few different knives, messing with different angles and such but when I finish the edge it just ends up convex. I tried several times to get a good pic with my micro camera but I can't get a good enough pic to be worth anything. I tried to do a micro bevel with no final polishing but I didn't like how dull it felt and it greatly reduced the cutting ability of the knife. I think I might try and start one to talk about convex bevels sence I can show that much better and I'm better at it.

Just to make things clear, when I said that I thought microbevels were cheating its because most that use them have never tried to sharpen their knife with just one bevel. Its a quick way to make a edge sharp, take a little more abuse and a good tool to help make a thin edge thick again but it does not make the edge any sharper. I believe they have their place but not on every edge.
 
Microbevels are very quick and easy to get sharp (hair whittling with my Shapton Glasstone 1000 grit in under a minute on my Military in CPM D2 or any other quality steel I have treid) I don't see why it is giving you trouble. Unless you use a jig it will have a tiny bit of convexity on it due to biomechanics, but I don't see the benefits of quick edges or stronger edges as cheating when you work with absurdly thin backbevels like I do. I notice no difference in cutting performance, but it only takes me about 5-10 strokes per grit for full sharpness, and as soon as I can see the bevel easily or it takes more than a few strokes to get the knife sharp I redo the backbevel. We are creatures of habit though, and if you aren't used to microbevels I guess you can have trouble with them. I would love to see a Phil Wilson style cutting test on a scale to see just what if any difference the first few microbevels would have on force required to cut, as I sure haven't noticed any loss in sharpness. The wider angle actually makes a given grit effectively finer with less teeth than a more acute angle would leave.

Mike
 
I tried doing it freehand and with my aligner jig, the jig worked best with the DMT XX-fine and freehand with the spyderco UF ceramic. The DMT left a cleaner edge than the ceramic but that's just not sharp enough for me ;) I.......must.....polish!

When I polish the edge I bring it back to the main bevel and use more preasure, so in the end its a micro convex bevel with a convex main bevel. I do notice a difference then but mainly in making fuzz sticks out of hair :D and edge durability.
 
knifenut1013 said:
I tried doing it freehand and with my aligner jig, the jig worked best with the DMT XX-fine and freehand with the spyderco UF ceramic. The DMT left a cleaner edge than the ceramic but that's just not sharp enough for me ;) I.......must.....polish!

When I polish the edge I bring it back to the main bevel and use more preasure, so in the end its a micro convex bevel with a convex main bevel. I do notice a difference then but mainly in making fuzz sticks out of hair :D and edge durability.
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I polish my microbevels just like I do a full bevel: stone (or in my case sub micron lapping film on float glass) propped up to my desired angle and work it to a .05 micron edge. I just did my 2 Krein customs (CPM D2 Hydra and CPM M4 Ultimate Caper) as well as my Caly 3 ZDP like this the other day. I thinned the main bevel to 7 per side, then after sharpening to 2000 grit at 7 per side (they all easily whittled hair at this point) I went to a 15 degree microbevel for 8000 grit, 1 micron, .3 micron, and .05 micron finishing. All were tremendously sharp, and no duller than my 4 per side full bevel efforts on my Takeda Gyuto in Super Blue. Tom Krein's 120 grit sharpening at a tad over 10 per side did manage to peel away some hair when doing a bit of a hair whittling test, that was pretty impressive to see and just done as a way to keep myself humble. That was done on a couple regrinds he had just sent me back. Anyway, my knives were all so sharp after finishing that they pull off the tiniest, dust small whittles of hair, and just sever the hair outright if you go at anything but a very flat angle toward the hair. It gets hard to do long whittles without severing off the hair or leaving tiny curls of hair sitting on the blade no longer attached to the hair strand (this is usually the case). I guess just doing this as my normal routine makes it second nature where when this is a change to your routine it can be a pain.
 
I think I understand now, we finish in different ways so I don't think we will ever agree to disagree. ;)I finish on leather (soft surface) 99% of the time and only use my MDF (hard surface) strop to start the process. I am also polishing the whole bevel at once and because of the soft surface it makes it convex in the end. Your method of hard surface finishing achieves the same thing (a really sharp thin edge) but in a different way.


my knives were all so sharp after finishing that they pull off the tiniest, dust small whittles of hair
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Pic's or it didn't happen :D
 
OK, I took the best pics my several year old Kodak digicam could take, and all the large pieces showed up, but the dust thin ones are about impossible to see. I will try to post it tonight. On the sharpening record thread my Ultimate Caper did the same thing, where you have to purposefully make thicker whittles because the camera doesn't pick up the tiny slivers. If you look at page 2 or 3 of that thread you can see the posture I took awhile back. On the pic I took thicker slivers are visible, but not the ultra thin ones.

Mike
 
picobrain said:
hi gunmike1

How do you measure your angles?
And how do you "prop up your stone"?


thanks
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At Lowes they sell a device for $10 that you can put on your stone that is propped up and it tells you what angle your stone is sitting at relative to the countertop. I set my stones in a rubber stoneholder and set the end of it on top of other stones or objects until I reach the desired angle from the counter. I hold the knife parallel to the counter letting the propped up stone hold my angle for me, picture a 1 sided sharpmaker tilted 90 degrees. It works well enough for me at keeping my angles where I want them. It is kind of like training wheels freehanding that I probably don't need at this point, but that is what I have been doing for years and I am a creature of habit.

Mike
 
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