Microbevels

pops, that single piece of advise has raised my sharpening game 10 fold. it just makes so much sense...finally i dont feel like an idiot looking at these Japanese water stones and slowly picking up my lanky sapphire hone. u da man!
 
After learning to use microbevels, the next step in advancing your sharpening skills is learning to properly convex a blade.

Just eliminate the bevel shoulders. By completely smoothing away the transition between the microbevel and primary bevel, and between the bevel and the blade grind, you decrease drag and increase cutting efficiency.

Of course, sharpening a convex slightly increases the degree of difficulty, but the payoff in performance is very much worthwhile.
 
A full flat grind from spine to edge on 1/4" x 1" stock is 7 degrees per side, so a 5 degree per side bevel is not that thin for a primary grind.
 
I grind all my stuff on a belt grinder and set up angles accordingly. I usually set up for a 17 degree angle for all my knives. Then I take a 9 micron belt and set that at 20 degrees. Why do I do this? Because it definitely takes the burrs off of my blade. Then I just blend in that 20 degree back with my 17 degree with a green compound on leather belt and I am set with a SUPER EDGE. Though I am getting sick of the leather belt because it is not tight and will slap the blade occasionally. Need to get a felt or cloth belt. But micro bevels do a great job of taking off burrs, its the best way I know how. And then the micro bevel gets blended back in perfectly.
 
I have a question that I need an answer to. I was reading this thread and I am a little disturbed now with respect to microbevels. I was reading about push cutting TP on another thread here and I changed my primary angle from 40 to 30 degrees which effectively removed my back bevel so that I now only have a 30 degree primary angle....and I did this on my Sebenza...hence why I am a little freaked out now! What are people's opinions on having just a primary edge???
 
kurtras said:
What are people's opinions on having just a primary edge???
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I'm not particularly a person, but having just a primary edge is fine when it's not so large that sharpening takes forever and not so thin that what you're normally cutting puts deep damage into the edge.
 
The primary purpose of a microbevel is to reduce sharpening time. If you don't mind spending the extra time, there is nothing wrong with polishing the whole bevel.

A couple of side benefits and uses of microbevels are increased durability and less wear on your fine stones. The durability aspect comes into play if you do sharpen at 30 degrees inclusive, but sometimes get small damage, like chips or edge dents. You can increase the angle by using a microbevel, and increase durability, without sacrificing all the added cutting ability of the original smaller bevel angle.

Less wear on fine stones is fairly obvious. You are only using the fine stone to polish a very small area of steel, maybe 1/10 the area of polishing the whole bevel. Also, Verhoeven's sharpening write-up found a small increase in sharpness by increasing the bevel about 5 degrees from the initial bevel, though no attempt was made to explain why.
 
I put a 15 per side microbevel on my Dad's ZDP Jess Horn last night, which had been sharpened flat to the stone with a slight microbevel. It had some small chips, so I took the edge pro out and 2-3 minutes later it was push cutting TP with it's new 15 degree per side microbevel. It should me much stronger now and it took a hell of a lot less time than it took me to put the shiny, flat to the stone edge on it.

Mike
 
DocNightfall said:
After learning to use microbevels, the next step in advancing your sharpening skills is learning to properly convex a blade.

Just eliminate the bevel shoulders. By completely smoothing away the transition between the microbevel and primary bevel, and between the bevel and the blade grind, you decrease drag and increase cutting efficiency.

Of course, sharpening a convex slightly increases the degree of difficulty, but the payoff in performance is very much worthwhile.
Click to expand...


DocNightfall,
Your post is almost a year old so I don't know if you are still reading this thread but a couple of months ago I did just what you mentioned here. I use an Edge Pro sharpener and set it to 18 degrees per side and put a good edge on a VG-10 Endura. Then I lowered the angle to 16 degrees and hit the blade with a few strokes. Then I lowered it to 14, then 12, then 10 degrees creating narrow bevels at each angle. This created a pretty close to a convex edge. Then I went back and put a true micro bevel on the very edge at 21 degrees with a 1000 grit water stone. You can barely see the 21 degree bevel. This created possibly the best slicing knife I had ever sharpened. I could go back and hit the entire edge at 19, 17, 15, 13 and 11 degrees to almost erase the appearance of flat bevels but I haven't done that. I probably will one day when I am EXTRA bored. :) This was very easy with the edge pro because there are no limitations on what angles you can set it to. I can even mark the edge with a marker, set to edge pro to the angle I want and it will hit the edge exactly the same as when I first sharpened it. The EP comes with marks at the 15, 18, 21 and 24 degree settings. One modification I did to my Edge Pro is I used a circular level like was mentioned earlier in this thread and marked my "angle rod" at one degree increments. I used a fine tip sharpie then a Dremel to cut small grooves for each degree. That helps a lot if you want to be that precise (which really isn't needed). I just had more time on my hands than needed I guess.

Jack

Jack
 
jackknifeh said:
DocNightfall,
Your post is almost a year old so I don't know if you are still reading this thread but a couple of months ago I did just what you mentioned here. I use an Edge Pro sharpener and set it to 18 degrees per side and put a good edge on a VG-10 Endura. Then I lowered the angle to 16 degrees and hit the blade with a few strokes. Then I lowered it to 14, then 12, then 10 degrees creating narrow bevels at each angle. This created a pretty close to a convex edge. Then I went back and put a true micro bevel on the very edge at 21 degrees with a 1000 grit water stone. You can barely see the 21 degree bevel. This created possibly the best slicing knife I had ever sharpened. I could go back and hit the entire edge at 19, 17, 15, 13 and 11 degrees to almost erase the appearance of flat bevels but I haven't done that. I probably will one day when I am EXTRA bored. :) This was very easy with the edge pro because there are no limitations on what angles you can set it to. I can even mark the edge with a marker, set to edge pro to the angle I want and it will hit the edge exactly the same as when I first sharpened it. The EP comes with marks at the 15, 18, 21 and 24 degree settings. One modification I did to my Edge Pro is I used a circular level like was mentioned earlier in this thread and marked my "angle rod" at one degree increments. I used a fine tip sharpie then a Dremel to cut small grooves for each degree. That helps a lot if you want to be that precise (which really isn't needed). I just had more time on my hands than needed I guess.

Jack

Jack
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Great post. I have and edge pro on the way and intend to try just that method of which I will term "back beveling".
 
mobenzowner said:
Great post. I have and edge pro on the way and intend to try just that method of which I will term "back beveling".
Click to expand...


mobenzowner, I did go back and use the odd angles and kind of wish I hadn't. With the even angle flat bevels you could see each and every bevel as you slowly turned the blade and caught the reflection of a light on each bevel. Especially if you look at the edge through a small magnifying glass. Each bevel was of equal width (or very close) with an almost scratchless mirror shine. Now it looks like a mess when I look at it real close. It may have more of a round shape but I can't tell any difference in the cutting performance. Since the performance isn't better I'd rather have the beautiful edge also. I'll redo the entire edge the next time I sharpen it I'm sure.

I think you will really apreciate the EP. Give yourself one or two weeks to get used to it. Mine was pretty awkward to use when I first got it but then what tool isn't? After six or seven months I can use it like walking down the sidewalk. Then again, that's kind of hard after some late nights. :) If you are interested in something I came up with what I call Edge Guide Blocks (EGB) let me know. I've found they are priceless when sharpening 4" and under blades that have odd shaped spines. Spydercos are the best example of the type of spine that caused me problems when trying to sharpen on the EP. The problem comes from the knife spine resting on the edge guide and when you push the stone across the edge from heel to tip the blade wants to pivot on the spine where the Spyder hole is because that is the only part of the spine that touches the edge guide. I believe when you get the EP and use it you will see what I mean. You can overcome this issue with practice but my EGBs really make it easier for me to quickly get a great edge faster and with more accuracy. It also means you can resharpen your knives and remove less steel each time to get good results. Sorry to ramble. Let me know if you would like to know more about the EGBs.

Jack

Jack
 
jackknifeh said:
mobenzowner, I did go back and use the odd angles and kind of wish I hadn't. With the even angle flat bevels you could see each and every bevel as you slowly turned the blade and caught the reflection of a light on each bevel. Especially if you look at the edge through a small magnifying glass. Each bevel was of equal width (or very close) with an almost scratchless mirror shine. Now it looks like a mess when I look at it real close. It may have more of a round shape but I can't tell any difference in the cutting performance. Since the performance isn't better I'd rather have the beautiful edge also. I'll redo the entire edge the next time I sharpen it I'm sure.

I think you will really apreciate the EP. Give yourself one or two weeks to get used to it. Mine was pretty awkward to use when I first got it but then what tool isn't? After six or seven months I can use it like walking down the sidewalk. Then again, that's kind of hard after some late nights. :) If you are interested in something I came up with what I call Edge Guide Blocks (EGB) let me know. I've found they are priceless when sharpening 4" and under blades that have odd shaped spines. Spydercos are the best example of the type of spine that caused me problems when trying to sharpen on the EP. The problem comes from the knife spine resting on the edge guide and when you push the stone across the edge from heel to tip the blade wants to pivot on the spine where the Spyder hole is because that is the only part of the spine that touches the edge guide. I believe when you get the EP and use it you will see what I mean. You can overcome this issue with practice but my EGBs really make it easier for me to quickly get a great edge faster and with more accuracy. It also means you can resharpen your knives and remove less steel each time to get good results. Sorry to ramble. Let me know if you would like to know more about the EGBs.

Jack

Jack
Click to expand...


Jack,
Thanks for the advice. Without seeing any appreciable difference in cutting performance, I agree there is no reason to changeup the nice looking edge. I love that look. I also fully understand the "blade rock" you mentioned regarding Spyderco type knives on the Edge Pro. I am interested in your EGB solution and would indeed like to know more. I really appreciate all your help!
Kevin
 
mobenzowner said:
Jack,
Thanks for the advice. Without seeing any appreciable difference in cutting performance, I agree there is no reason to changeup the nice looking edge. I love that look. I also fully understand the "blade rock" you mentioned regarding Spyderco type knives on the Edge Pro. I am interested in your EGB solution and would indeed like to know more. I really appreciate all your help!
Kevin
Click to expand...


I posted the EGB info on the Spyderco forum. Check it out if you want to. It has all the info I could think of to share this "trick". Click on the link below.

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46425

Jack
 
Thanks for the link. I got to tell ya, that is a great idea. I will definitely make a few of those before I go nuts on my good knives with the edge pro.

Kevin
 
mobenzowner said:
Thanks for the link. I got to tell ya, that is a great idea. I will definitely make a few of those before I go nuts on my good knives with the edge pro.

Kevin
Click to expand...


I didn't think of the guide block idea until I got the first ZDP-189 blade knife. I had a terrible time getting a razor sharp edge on it like it came with. After asking questions of people and giving it some thought I thought maybe if my knife was rocking back and forth even a little the stone would be hitting the edge just slightly differently on each stroke. After making the blocks and realizing it also just took more strokes and time on the harder steels I am now able to sharpen ZDP very easily with exceptional results. Up until that steel VG-10, AUS-8 and such steel blades were no problem. Have fun.

Jack
 
jackknifeh said:
DocNightfall,
Your post is almost a year old so I don't know if you are still reading this thread but a couple of months ago I did just what you mentioned here. I use an Edge Pro sharpener and set it to 18 degrees per side and put a good edge on a VG-10 Endura. Then I lowered the angle to 16 degrees and hit the blade with a few strokes. Then I lowered it to 14, then 12, then 10 degrees creating narrow bevels at each angle. This created a pretty close to a convex edge. Then I went back and put a true micro bevel on the very edge at 21 degrees with a 1000 grit water stone. You can barely see the 21 degree bevel. This created possibly the best slicing knife I had ever sharpened. I could go back and hit the entire edge at 19, 17, 15, 13 and 11 degrees to almost erase the appearance of flat bevels but I haven't done that. I probably will one day when I am EXTRA bored. :) This was very easy with the edge pro because there are no limitations on what angles you can set it to. I can even mark the edge with a marker, set to edge pro to the angle I want and it will hit the edge exactly the same as when I first sharpened it. The EP comes with marks at the 15, 18, 21 and 24 degree settings. One modification I did to my Edge Pro is I used a circular level like was mentioned earlier in this thread and marked my "angle rod" at one degree increments. I used a fine tip sharpie then a Dremel to cut small grooves for each degree. That helps a lot if you want to be that precise (which really isn't needed). I just had more time on my hands than needed I guess.

Jack

Jack
Click to expand...

You're welcome! I still lurk around here on an irregular basis, and it's great to see that my advice still helps people after all this time. Always remember-- bevel shoulders are THE DEVIL! ;D
 
I speed read through this thread and didnt find an answer to this. Is it ok to remove a burr by making a microbevel ?
 
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