Midtech

[Keith Montgomery]

This seems to be a bit of a touchy subject and I am not sure how many makers will want to get involved in this thread, but it seems that the term midtech does not have a very distinct definition and I would love to know what people think of the whole midtech idea.

When Ken Onion coined the phrase it was to mean that if a knife had any of its primary construction components outsourced then the term midtech could be used as a way to differentiate this type of manufacture from true custom and also from production. Ken's Midtech knives have the blade and handles blanked out and Ken does all the grinding and finishing. This is something that has been done by some makers for years and called custom.

What do you folks think should define a midtech knife, or do you think there should even be such a designation? I think that getting one or two of the major time consuming operations outsourced so that the price of a knife can be lowered is a good thing as long as people purchasing these knives know how they were produced, but is there a need to label this kind of knife? Should we just be cognizant enough to ask a maker how his/her knives are made and depend on their honesty?

I would prefer if no names were mentioned in this thread as it is a discussion and possible debate on what exactly a midtech knife is and whether we actually need this designation at all, not a place to vent about makers that you may be unhappy with. I am very hopeful that this thread will not turn into a pissing match.

 

[Kit Carson]

Keith,
You know it will turn into one of those
I'll jump in later on.

 

[Thomason]

Some time ago I called a custom maker to order a small folder. It never occurred to me to bring up the issue. He made a point of telling me that on that particular model the blades were farmed out to be cut and that he did everything else. I informed him that it made no difference to me. He said that he just wanted make sure I knew how they were made. In this case the maker was totally upfront with the customer. What more could one want?

 

[marcangel]

I'm all for "mid-tech" knives, as long as the buyer knows what he's getting, and the maker honestly represents the work. Final fit and finish, as well as blade grinding should be done by the maker, at a minimum.

 

[nifrand]

There are a bunch of "mid tech" custom makers out there.





That should start some more doo doo.

 

[Bastid]

There are a bunch of "mid tech" custom makers out there.





That should start some more doo doo.

Yup - that is all I got to say -.

Except there is nothing wrong with that as long as the customer knows.

 

[Gossman Knives]

A maker has a right to makes knives any way he or she wants to. The problem I have is when there are certain steps in the knifemaking process that are done on machinery not performed by the actual maker himself and are said to be handmade. I understand when making a folder in order to get proper fit, parts have to be milled. My main concern in this is fixed blades. When they are laser cut and machine ground they should not be considered handmade. My definition of handmade is that the maker does everything to the making of the knife by his hand. From profiling the knife from barstock to hand grinding the blade to final hand shaping and fitting the guard and handle. From my understanding the only thing allowed to be outsourced and still be considered handmade was the heat treat. I could never find out the true definition of mid tech anyway. Just my 2 cents

 

[nifrand]

And some of those"mid tech" custom makers also make some real cool "Sole Authorship" knives to even out the mix.Most are very honest about what is what.

 

[GigOne]

Bunches of things to contemplate in this thread. . . .

First, trying to come up with a reasonably accepted definition of what constitutes a “Midtech” is going to be the same as coming up with a reasonably accepted definition of what constitutes a “custom” knife and/or "sole authorship."

Simply. . . . .it's impossible !

Second, I think that Mr. Onion had an exceptional idea in producing a “Midtech.” At that time, his waiting list was 5+ years and the cost of an Onion custom was (from dealers and the secondary market). The “Midtech” allowed him to produce a quality knife at an exceptional price, while also attempting to please his large customer base. The only draw back. . .now. . .an “Onion Midtech” (from a dealer or on the secondary market) will cost you bucks.

Personally, the concept is very sound. There are makers who have extensive waiting lists (for one of their customs). Producing a “Midtech” allows a maker to produce a quality knife, without the customer having to wait years for a “custom knife” from that specific maker, and at a reasonable price. It’s a good business practice for the maker and a win for the customer !

“Should we just be cognizant enough to ask a maker how his/her knives are made and depend on their honesty?”

There will always be integrity, moral and ethical issues with certain people. What does it matter if you ask and you’re told something completely opposite to the truth ? Who will know ? Truly, the only way that you'll know is to stand over the makers shoulder. . .every minute that the knife is being made.

If he/she informs me that a certain part(s) were out sourced. . .great ! And I will have an even greater respect for the maker. If he/she doesn’t. . .hell, I wouldn’t know. IMHO, a maker doesn’t have to mine/smelt/refine the metal that makes the blade (or other metal components that make up the knife) nor do they have to grow, chop, etc. the tree to make the scales. On the other hand. . .if a maker purchases a “kit knife” from the local Lowe’s store, puts it together and sells it to me as a “custom or midtech”. . .we’re going to have a little problem.

The custom makers that I’ve dealt with have extremely solid reputations. Those reputations go back for years. They have been reliable, up front, and honest in my dealings with them. That’s why I deal with them !

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Scott, the only definition that has been given to midtech knives was given by Ken Onion. It was he that coined the name to describe a new line of knives that he was introducing. This line of knives was to be similar to his custom knives, but a couple of the time consuming elements of making the knives were to be outsourced. This was the blanking of the blades and the handles. The reason for this was so that knives that were less expensive and faster to produce could be made available to his customers. He felt that it would not be right to call them custom, so he gave them another designation.

One of the problems with the name midtech is that it has come to be used for knives that have had most of their fabrication outsourced. Sometimes to the level that about the only thing being done by the maker is the final assembly. In my opinion, this is a production knife, not a custom or a midtech.

I am really interested in opinions from the members here as to whether there is a need for the name midtech at all. Just because there is such a classification are makers going to consider the knives they make as fitting into this genre? These knives have been produced for years and called customs. Are the makers of these knives going to all of a sudden change what they call their knives? Personally, I think there will be a lot of indignation on the part of makers that have been outsourcing the cutting of their blades, and in some cases other elements of manufacture as well, when they are told that these knives should be called anything other than custom. The name midtech has a connotation that equates to being of a lower level than a sole authorship, fully handmade knife. Maybe not when it comes to quality, but definitely in the area of desirability.

 

[Gossman Knives]

It really doesn't matter to me how other makers want to make and market their knives. I have my own way of making my product and can sleep at night knowing I sold a truly handmade knife to my customer. Something happened several months ago at a local gunshow that pissed me off. There was and older fellow with a table full of so called custom knives. He had business cards stating these were custom knives. When I took a closer look, these were nothing more then kit blades you buy from the suppliers. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if he was up front telling the truth, but to stand there and claim that he made them is bullsh....t. To answer your question no I don't think we need the name mid tech. It's causing hard feelings and confusion. :grumpy: Just read the Dozier thread on this forum.
Scott

 

[Keith Montgomery]

To answer your question no I don't think we need the name mid tech. It's causing hard feelings and confusion. :grumpy: Just read the Dozier thread on this forum.

I have. That is what prompted me to start this thread. I had thought about bringing these points up there, but felt that it would better to start a new thread that to hijack that one.

 

[Architect]

Mid-Tech, which was intelligently applied by a single maker within ths context of their own product line has become as useless now as the term "custom", since it is being applied without context. In fact, defining "mid-tech" is only meaningful if it is defined relative to the term "custom".

That word has been the subject of endless debate and pissing matches as well, and I stand on the side that "custom" means whatever you want it to mean, as it is presently applied.

Heck, I don't even know what a production knife is anymore. Simply put, production can mean anything from 1 knife produced to 100,000 knives produced. How can you lump Spyderco or Benchmade (with perhaps a typical run of 2,000 knives per year for certain models) with Buck or Case (produce probably 20 or 30 times that amount of knives per year of certain models)?

There really is no way to quantify a meaningful definition unless each knife comes with a "Nutritional Label". Blade, scales, lock, screws, heat treat, clip - all of these folder elements could be uniformly identifed on a certificate with an agreed-upon methodology for identifying origin and specie of each process. Let's get started!

Even then, none of this helps the consumer understand the "quality" of a knife - about the same as comparing the nutritional value of Velveeta with the nutrional value of Triple-creme Brie. If you don't like Velveeta, then you don't really care what the nutrional value is, and vice-versa.

"Custom", "Semi-Custom", "Benchmade", "Handmade" are all marketing terms - they are only worth what people are willing to pay for them.

Keep buying those Randall-Made "Factory" knives and keep making money. Stay away from 90% of "custom" knives - you are guaranteed to lose value on them as soon as you drive them away from the lot.

 

[brownshoe]

I thought midtech was not a confusing concept until I applied it to the Dozier-Russell knives and found out it had a negative connotation.

In my mind a mid-tech knife was where some of the work was done by machine outside of the maker's shop. Most of the work, including the final grind, assemply, etc. would be done in the maker's shop. A mid-tech knife is mostly, but not fully handmade. A handmade knife is one that is constructed from blade and handle raw materials using hand tools or hand operated power tools. No you don't have to jig your own bone for a handmade knife...be real.

A midtech is different from a fully hand made knife. A midtech is different from a production knife that is assembled by hand from machine made parts (e.g., spydercos, william henry's, crk, etc.) It is different from a production handmade knife (e.g., randall). Different does not mean better or worse.

The real problem with the term "mid-tech" lies with the knifemakers. It comes from the basic conflict between the knifemakers' desire to make money (i.e. sell lots of knives) but also continue to be respected for craftmanship and art (i.e. what comes from making the blade by hand.) These two concepts are at cross purposes.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

The real problem with the term "mid-tech" lies with the knifemakers. It comes from the basic conflict between the knifemakers' desire to make money (i.e. sell lots of knives) but also continue to be respected for craftmanship and art (i.e. what comes from making the blade by hand.) These two concepts are at cross purposes.

Making knives by hand and making lots of money are not neccesarily exclusive of one another. There are makers that do both.

If a maker is really popular and could sell way more knives than could be made fully by hand, then having parts outsourced can certainly open avenues to being able to make more money.

Midtech knives are good for both the maker and the people looking to get one of his/her knives. As a maker, when you outsource parts you can make more knives for cheaper prices (hopefully). These knives will also attract the customers that love the maker's handmade knives, but can't afford them. The potential customer gets less expensive knives and doesn't have to wait as long to get them. It is true that these knives will not have the cashe that the handmade knives have, but to many that is not as important as a lower price and better availability.

Another question for you to ponder. Do you think that a maker should tell you how a knife is made when you are looking to make a purchase, or do you think it is your responsibility to ask. Makers, do you think that this is information that should be disclosed or do you think that if it important enough to the customer that they should ask?

It is my view that although I would greatly repect any maker that would volunteer this information, that it is my reposibility as a consumer to ask about anything that is important to me. That is because I would have no problem doing this, but I know for a fact that there are people that would be afrais to ask this question thinking that they might be insulting the maker.

 

[SharpByCoop]

Good probing topic, Keith.

I like the term. If it is used correctly *most* of the time there will be some quick indication of what to expect. Same with the word custom. I know, I know, I've participated in all those 'custom vs handmade vs production' threads, and there isn't a clear definition. But.... it's a guideline that applies *much* of the time.

'MidTech' at least errs on the side of the production aspect rather than the handmade aspect.

Coop

 

[Gossman Knives]

I have no problem telling potential customers how I make my knives. I feel they have a right to know since they are laying down their hard earned cash. I am very honest and sincere in the way I conduct my business. I'm somewhat new to knifemaking with about three years under my belt. I've been in the retail end of the knife business for seven years. I have a small but loyal customer following because I treat all my customers with the dignity they deserve. I want them to come back to me with future knife needs. My phone is always there if they need me. They are the reason I love to do this. Without them, what's the purpose. I have a minimal amount of tools and do everything freehand. The only thing I outsource is my heat treat. I also make my own sheaths. I'm not looking to become famous, I do this to make my fellow knife enthusist happy. The most satisfaction I get is when I hear how happy they are with their purchase.
Scott
There's another point I wanted to add. When a knife is in my definition handmade, it is not going to be 100% perfect as what a machine can do. The maker is limited to what his hand and eye are capable of. Hand-eye coordination is a big part in knife making. Every persons view of something can be seen in a different way. It' comparable to hanging a picture on the wall, my wife always wants me to check after she has hung it because she cannot seem to get it as straight as me. That's what makes a handmade or custom knife so unique. All of the sudtle differences from one knife to the next, in other words, no two are indentical.
Scott

 

[averageguy]

"My definition of handmade is that the maker does everything to the making of the knife by his hand. From profiling the knife from barstock to hand grinding the blade to final hand shaping and fitting the guard and handle. From my understanding the only thing allowed to be outsourced and still be considered handmade was the heat treat."

That is also my definition of "handmade" and "custom".
For me, a "custom" is not necessarily one of a kind but it is all handmade.

"When they are laser cut and machine ground they should not be considered handmade."

Or, custom.

In my opinion, the Dozier knives that are not completely handmade (most of the patterns that are regularly seen) are not custom.
For me, applying the term "midtech" to these denotes the fact that there are still handmade aspects to the knife - it is a step up from a production knife but not a custom.
It's a way to show appreciation for the special nature of midtech knives.
Knives that are made under strict supervision with extreme attention to quality control and involving a number of handmade steps by the maker.
Some knives are more midtech (outsourced or less handmade processes) than others.

If my definition does not meet the original definition applied to the term it's because the definition of many words evolve and change over time due to changes in society and in this case advances in technology.

All of my custom knives are completely handmade by the maker.

Generally, Randall - Busse - Dozier - Reeves - are not custom (I understand that these makers make or have made many true customs).
They are not production.
That leaves only one term to apply - midtech. Like it or not.

Whether or not a maker chooses to apply the term midtech to a knife is up to him but don't call them custom.

 

[Bob Dozier]

Averageguy
I bow out of this thread as it obvious that your knowledge of knife making is far greater than mine. I am out classed.

Bob D.

 

[Gossman Knives]

Bob,
I think alot of the problem with this mid tech situation stems from the fact that the term is ever presently being misinterpeded. It's like Ken said other makers are using this term to defind their production knives. If you don't hear the truth straight from the mouth of the maker it is bound to be misinterpeded. It's like telling a story to someone and by the time it gets to the tenth person it is a completely different story from the original. you are one of the most respected makers in the business and I feel you should be commended for coming up with a way of making knives that the average Joe can afford. You are the main reason I decided to use D2 as my main steel in knifemaking.
Scott