Midtech

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The more important heat treat can be outsourced and still called a custom, wile the meaningless ruff shaping cann't be? I beleive the heat treat on a knife is what makes a knife a knife. I'm always confused when I see someone ofended that the ruff shaping may have been lazor cut and have no problem with the heat treament being outsourced. I'd say if your outsourcing the heat treatment it's a Midtech, or what ever the term of the day is.
 
db said:
The more important heat treat can be outsourced and still called a custom, wile the meaningless ruff shaping cann't be? I beleive the heat treat on a knife is what makes a knife a knife. I'm always confused when I see someone ofended that the ruff shaping may have been lazor cut and have no problem with the heat treament being outsourced. I'd say if your outsourcing the heat treatment it's a Midtech, or what ever the term of the day is.
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I assume you are refering to my replies. I could be wrong but from what I've been told and have read, under the bi-laws of the Knifemakers Guild, it is exceptable for handmade or custom knives to have the heat treat done by someone other then the maker. Every other part has to be done by the maker himself. A.G. Russell should be the one to clarify this since he was responsible for forming the Guild.
Scott
 
My post wasn't directed at any one person. I just beleive the heat treatment is higher on the important parts of making a knife than the ruff shaping of a handle or blade.
 
I understand where your coming from. I think this whole thing could be resolved if the makers would just be upfront with their way of making knives. I think most pretty much do. Knives, knifemaking, buying, selling,etc.etc is supposed to be what we all here enjoy. There will always be difference of opinion, so why debate it. Buy what you like and be done with it. :D
Scott
 
I all ways need a good knife. I'll do that. Btw are your knives custom? :D Don't answer that :)
 
If each classification that is given to knives had a stand definition then I think midtech would be a useful addition. It would give potential purchasers a good idea of what they were getting. The problem is that this is not the case. There is such a wide variety of what is considered a custom or even a production knife that I can't see midtech knives being any different. In fact, the term might just add more confusion to the mix.

As has always been the case, the knife buyer must depend on the honesty of the maker, but, if how the knife is made is important to them, they must be willing to ask the pertinent questions. Do not expect a maker to divulge this information. I read a post on a forum a while back by a very prominent maker. He stated that he was going to have the blades on one of his models laser cut and that he had no intention of informing people interested in buying the knife of this. He stated that if they asked he would tell them, or if they found out later and wanted a refund he would give them their money back.

db, I agree that something like having the blade laser cut is not a big deal. Heat treating is a much more important area of knifemaking than how the blades are cut to shape. However, how far along that road can we go before a knife can no longer be considered a custom knife, nor a production knife, and is there a place for another classification?

Bob, I am sorry that you do not want to take part here. I think that your input would be very interesting and informative, but I do understand why there is a reluctance on the part of makers to stay out of threads like this.
 
It's all about honesty. I don't care if a maker calls it "midtech", "semicustom", "small factory" or whatever...I just want to know how they make their knives...mostly 'cause I'm interested in what goes into their knives as well as the finished product.

Ken made up the term as stated in the first post. Others have latched onto the term and "made it their own". I guess that's just the way it goes. Some innovate and some follow.

~Mitch
 
Keith Montgomery,
Ken Onion coined the phrase so shouldn't he be the person who provides the definition?

Everyone Else,
I personally think the word MidTech has been used and mis-used to the point where it has very little meaning. Some makers are designing a knife and then having it completely made outside their shop and calling it a MidTech.

Why isn't outsourcing heat treating considered MidTech?

Should we have KM Guild mandated definition of MidTechness? An example of outsourced processes and materials would be:
* MidTech 1.0 = Heat Treat
* MidTech 2.0 = Rough Handle
* MidTech 2.1 = Finished Handle
* MidTech 2.2 = Handle Material
* MidTech 3.0 = Rough Blade
* MidTech 3.1 = Finished Blade
* MidTech 3.2 = Blade Material
* MidTech 4.0 = Fasteners
* MidTech 4.1 = Pivot
* MidTech 4.2 = Screws
* MidTech 4.3 = Pins
* MidTech 4.4 = Mosaic Pins
* MidTech 4.5 = Washers
* MidTech 4.6 = Fasteners Materials
* MidTech 5.0 = Some Power Tools Were Used
* MidTech 6.0 = I Made My Own Freaking Sandpaper By:
..... Growing my own tree which I cut down using a rock,
..... Mashing the wood and mixing it with my spit to make paper,
..... Hand picked grains of sand off the beach,
..... Glued the sand to the paper with pitch from the wood.

How far should the BS go?

The bottom line is honest communication between maker and collector. All the makers I know who are having parts made or heat treated are telling their customers. Anyone who has a problem with MidTech beyond honest communication has other issues which should be addressed by a psychologist.
 
Keith
I will answer you but don't have the need to answer any one that knows
nothing of knifemaking or the frustration of talking to someone who has no understanding of operating a knife business and having to compete with other makers that are not what they represent themselves to be. Making a living at knifmaking can be a hard row to hoe without added frustrations
I am not questioning the way other makers make their knives or what the customers want. All I said was that I did not want MIDTEC used with my name as it did not rep. what it was meant to be in the begining. It does not represent what we do here.
The forums should be for the costomers to talk to each other and talk to makers with their questions answered directly by the makers with out a lot of B.S. This is not the way it is. There are too many people with out any thing to do but try to show how much they know about the knife business and keep a useless subject going too long. Even after it has been answered by knowledgeable folks.
Bob D.
 
You folks really crack me up.

You take a term coined by a reputable maker with nothing but honorable intentions and twist it into what you want it to mean - regardless of how many times he explains it to you. Then, you attack other reputable makers by insinuating that, somehow, they're cheating.

You wonder how these guys make so many knives? By working on knives whenever they aren't sleeping!!!

These guys can grind any of you under the table even on their worst day!

And yet, you continue to make presumptions on a career path you've never travelled. Look who's making knives for a living and who isn't. Look who isn't even making knives.

Maybe you think anyone who gets somewhere must have outside help. Maybe you think there is no such thing as a custom knife anymore. Maybe you don't trust anybody - even if they take time from their busy schedules to come here and give you the attention you so desperately demand.

To someone who has met and talked with these gentlemen, there are no finer people (people - not just knifemakers) in the world. If you can't get past your jealousy or suspicions, don't buy any more knives from anyone who calls themselves a custom maker. Obviously, they can talk themselves blue in the face, show you photos, and even invite you to their shops - and you still refuse to believe them.

Thanks, once again, for showing how "grateful" you really are for these fine folks busting their humps for you.

BTW: In case you're considering backpeddling on this, don't bother. I see a lot of names of folks here who are constantly involved in topics like this - fanning the flames - getting their post counts up. Trends on the forums are easy to follow if you use the search function. Even a dumb knifemaker knows that.

Ken, Kit, and Bob: I apologize for losing my cool. It takes a lot to get me this mad.
 
Bob Dozier said:
Keith
There are too many people with out any thing to do but try to show how much they know about the knife business and keep a useless subject going too long. Even after it has been answered by knowledgeable folks.
Bob D.
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Bob, that's about the best response/analysis I have ever seen in my 5 years on here!

~Mitch
 
Well, obviously I have made statements here that have upset many. That was not my intention or purpose. To those I have offended I apologize.
 
Well then, Keith, please tell us - what was your intention in posting this topic again?

If you wanted opinions - you got them!
 
My intention was to find out if people thought that there was a need for the midtech classification of knives. Obviously there are topics that should be avoided so as not to step on toes. I have learned a good lesson here.
 
Keith:

You're not stepping on my toes. I haven't felt the need to label any of my knives "Midtech" knives - even after reading and understanding what Ken Onion described as "Midtech". It's his term. I trust he knew how to define it when he did. Beyond that, any "spin" anyone puts on it would be subject to scrutiny, because they would obviously be adapting it to suit their purpose.

What I do have a problem with is how threads like this cast aspersions on the entire "custom" knifemaking community. You ask not to list names, so the question of unknown makers' integrities continues. You ask that we vote whether or not a term is viable when the very premise of the topic suggests it is not.

You suggest that some knifemakers might be too wary to even engage in this type of discussion. You're right. There aren't enough hours in the day for many full time makers to search out and respond to every post on every internet forum that might concern them.

You request that folks ask makers questions before they buy knives, but then suggest you can't trust what makers say!?

Let's look at solutions:

1. Don't buy custom knives.

2. If you buy a custom knife, go to the maker's shop and watch the maker build it from start to finish. (Let's face it, photographs and videos can be manipulated.) You'll also need to require material certifications because a lot of blade steel looks the same. So do different grades of titanium. So do certain species of wood. So do certain species of bone. And, don't forget to ask when the last time the heat treat oven's control was calibrated to an established, traceable standard. Maybe it's really a well camoflauged "Easy Bake" oven!?

I fully realize that, compared to those employed in many other professions, certain enthusiasts expect the life of a knifemaker to be an "open book" - something that, if pushed hard enough, can become "invasion of privacy." Not that any knifemaker doesn't owe you the truth when you ask questions about how a knife is made, but if you press hard enough it turns into "solution #2" above.

Why do these doubts exist? Because of all the speculation and inuendo stimulated by folks who are less than satisfied with one or more makers and because some makers are cited as being less than honest. (See "solution #1" above.)

I would never go on a public forum and say "I heard all salespeople are liars." Why? Because I wouldn't want to offend you or anyone in your profession for the sake of stimulating response on a public forum. I wouldn't even do it on a private forum.
 
Please point out where I state that you can't trust a maker to give you an hinest answer. All I stated was that there are makers that will not offer you the information unless you ask. I did not state that they would not be honest if asked.
 
To make something very clear, I want it known that I consider knifemakers to be some of the most honest people that I know. There are going to be some bad apples in any group, but as far as knifemakers go the percentage of bad apples is incredibly low.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Should we just be cognizant enough to ask a maker how his/her knives are made and depend on their honesty?
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Any maker I'm going to be ordering from is an honest maker. If you're ordering from a maker whose honesty you need to question, I would question why I'm even ordering the knife in the first place.

~Mitch
 
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