midtechs, whats the point

If you want overbuilt, try the TOPS/Buck CSAR-T
0.175" thick blade of 154CM steel, with a blade grind that makes the SmF look wimpy.

Of course, I am still reprofiling it to the point where it will effectively cut things...

There's always a trade off. :)
 
asdf12345 said:
Yep, judging from that picture alone it's apparent that Striders actually have really weak blades that snap at the first sign of 'hard-use'. That overbuilt thing sure is just a facade, isn't it? Thicker material actually doesn't have any relation to strength, despite what those pesky physicists tell you! Those blades aren't at all stronger than on knives with thinner blade stock. Good on you for crusading for the truth and exposing con artists for what they are.
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:rolleyes:
 
asdf12345 said:
Yep, judging from that picture alone it's apparent that Striders actually have really weak blades that snap at the first sign of 'hard-use'. That overbuilt thing sure is just a facade, isn't it? Thicker material actually doesn't have any relation to strength, despite what those pesky physicists tell you! Those blades aren't at all stronger than on knives with thinner blade stock. Good on you for crusading for the truth and exposing con artists for what they are.
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In fairness that pic was originally posted in another forum bragging about how hard he was prying on something to get the blade to break. In this case the thick blade steel is compromised by the gimping and opening hole. The context was that even a super strong blade can be broken if used to pry. For a change of pace I'm not busting on the Strider boys this time around.
 
Materials, exclusivity, design elements, supporting an American small business, better heat treat, plus the simple joy of ownership. If you need it explained, you won't understand yet.
 
bpeezer said:
Materials, exclusivity, design elements, supporting an American small business, better heat treat, plus the simple joy of ownership. If you need it explained, you won't understand yet.
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Whoa, your post made me think we were in a Sebenza thread for a moment.

But speaking of, has anyone tested or used these midtechs extensively enough to know their durability, longevity and performance, compared to production knives like the Sebenza, XM and SNG?

I don't think I've ever heard someone complain about their Graham midtech Razel or their Southard Avo. Are these knives just perfect, with no lemons or problems anywhere?

Because if that is actually the case, then maybe they are worth it.

If it's not, and people simply aren't using their midtechs enough to discover problems, then maybe protecting the value of the knives is a self-fulfilling prophecy: the "as long as they look good & are the rage, you can sell them for what you paid or more!" mentality. Look at what happened to the demand for AdV midtechs after problems with the maker & the knives were brought to light.

What will happen if Graham, Southard or Chaves, at some point in the future, decades perhaps, will not be able to service their own midtechs?

I'd still like to know what you would do to get one of these midtechs repaired or fixed several years down the line, given that they are very limited runs and the tooling isn't owned by the maker responsible for them.
 
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I wasn't specifically referring to midtechs, but also high end productions. As per OP, my post was in consideration of knives that cost twice as much as your average ZT. Just this week I read a thread comparing S30V from a custom to Spyderco's S30V. I think it was a Michael Raymond. He found that the custom held the same edge insanely long compared to the production. Might not be the same for all high end productions/midtechs/customs, but still good to know that there are some performance improvements to be had over Spyderco's.
 
"If it's not, and people simply aren't using their midtechs enough to discover problems, then maybe protecting the value of the knives is a self-fulfilling prophecy: the "as long as they look good & are the rage, you can sell them for what you paid or more!" mentality."

I think that's exactly the case for most "midtech" and exclusive limited edition runs. Protect the investment at all costs. Don't ever use it but make sure talk about how great it is and railroad anyone who disagrees.

I will say that some midtech/production knives really are a cut above. Southard AVO and CRK being two examples. Don't get me started on the ridiculousness of these overpriced limited edition runs or even simple overpriced regular production knives that people don't really use but speak about how great they are.

Truth is most people would be fine with a queen or case slipjoint. They don't really ever do anything at all that requires more than what those knives offer, but they speak about how absolutely great these other knives are without any real basis to stand on.
 
patrickthealmighty said:
I see many people who preach about there sebenza, xm18 or sng but are they really worth it over many high end production knives for example zero tolerance and emerson
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Yes, they are worth it. You aren't paying for the materials as much as the fit & finish at their price range, and to those willing to purchase one of those knives it is worth it.

patrickthealmighty said:
based on what you actually get not perceived value, i love zt and they are pretty much perfect
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While ZT might be perfect for you, ZT is not perfect for everybody. Many here agree that Chris Reeve makes the best production knives on the planet, but they aren't for everybody. I happen to have purchased a few of the extremely popular ZTs off the exchange here to test out (0560, 0561, 0566), and I gotta say they are well built but not perfect by any means. For one, they are frame-locks (As a left-hander I can't do frame-locks very well). Two, they have flippers (through carrying experience knives with flippers are just too cumbersome to be in my pockets when anything else in in them, like a phone). Three, they don't have very good grinds for cutting through the materials I usually cut through (I cut cardboard like a mofo at work). Four, I used the 0566 on a hike this past winter, it was very unpleasant to use when it was cold and raining, due to the majority of the handle being metal and thus very cold. Cold, wet fingers + cold, wet, and smooth frame = hard and uncomfortable to use.

Through 8 months of trial and error thanks to the exchange here, I have managed to build and trim my EDC collection to 5 knives at the moment: 2 Benchmades, 3 Spydercos. The AXIS is the best lock for me as a left-hander who whips his knife out many times at work and needs to have an ambidextrous lock, and the Spydercos have full flat grinds and/or ZDP steel for epic slicing abilities when I really wanna trim a piece of cardboard to the perfect dimensions.

patrickthealmighty said:
nah not just zt, i like pretty much any over built knife for a good cost
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You should check out the Ontario RAT folders, the Kershaw/Emerson collab folders, among others. Overbuilt knives abound, but they are not all that are out there in regards to daily use.

patrickthealmighty said:
one of my issues with spydies
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That's a Strider, not A Spyderco, and whomever broke the blade was obviously prying with it instead of cutting with it, thus demonstrating why overbuilt folders are a recipe for knife abuse and blade snapping.
 
Misanthropia said:
Perceived value is a huge, inseparable feature of knives. ZT is undeniably the king of absolute value; the materials and fit and finish they are achieving on their production knives is second to none.

But some of us place higher weight on some subjective features, and thus will spend more money to attain them. There absolutely is a point of diminishing returns, but that doesn't stop me from spending more on a knife with less absolute value than a ZT. Case and point: most customs.
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I would happily deny that ZT is any kind of value king. There are quite a few knives out there with equivalent steel, stronger locks and often better cutting geometry. You have to remember, value is pretty subjective and given that I don't care about titanium, carbon fiber, bearing pivots or flippers I find ZT to be a bit overpriced.
 
Midtech is a horribly vague term these days, used by many to market what is really just a production knife at very high prices that likely has no actual hand work done to it by the person who's name is used to sell it. So it's best to check how much real work the maker puts into their "mid-tech" knife.

Some are better than others, just like knives at all price points. "Worth" is a very subjective term. Over the last few years I've dabbled in many of these knives in the $300-$600 range, from many well respected companies nad makers, and frankly been disappointed more frequently than not. Very few offer real benefits aside exclusivity over other production knives that cost half as much, and usually offer blade steels with higher edge retention. Some offer noticeable fit and finish above average say $200 production knife, but they are the exception IMO.

I've seen just as many problems with lock rock, poor blade detent/retention, lock bar tension too low/high, poorly sharpened, sharp handle edges, etc. with midtech/production knives in that $300-$600 price range as with production knives in the $150-250 price range.
 
If you have to ask, then you probably don't see the point right now. Give it some time, though, and you may start to see why some people may prefer to skip ZT/Emerson entirely.

Since I'm left handed there aren't many options out there. Admittedly Emerson does make left handed versions of their knives, but I'm not enamored by many of the design decisions that go into his knives.

Take a look at some of Spyderco's framelocks. Although I don't think they beat out CRK's, I will say that they beat out Strider's:

Cynic2701 said:
I actually just sharpened one for another member over the weekend. Spyderco does a very good job with the grind on the Techno--despite having a slight thicker blade than an SNG (.177 inches for the Techno vs. .165 for the SNG) the Techno has much much better edge geometry. Fit and finish-wise the Techno takes it over Strider without question and CTS-XHP is an excellent steel.



And here it is in comparison to a few other framelocks:

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No Striders here but I do loves me some titanium.

IMG_0162.jpg
 
RevDevil said:
...Isn't that exactly what Ken Onion defined a Mid Tech to be? Something that is better than a regular production line knife, with some of the characteristics of a custom; but not quite the level of custom fit and finish/quality? I guess we each have our own ideas, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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asdf12345 said:
I thought Ken Onion said that Midtechs are custom knives with outsourced work....
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Instead of speculating, here is what Ken Onion actually had to say on the subject (he created the term) in this forum back in 2004 (I added the bold):

KenOnion said:
Mid-Tech is a class of knives I created a few years ago to put a dividing line between custom and production .I wanted to discontinue my Boa knife a few years ago due to bordom but the demand was still so high I didn't dare . So I decided to get the parts cut out for me and I would do the grinding shaping and finnishing myself .Problem was , I didn't want everyone to assume I did all my knives this way. I needed to devise a way to differentiate between my custom and these knives I had subbed out part of .The answer was Mid-Tech ,by creating a new category of knives somewhere between custom and production and marketing as such these "Mid-Tech" knives would clearly establish a dividing line between custom and Mid-Tech or less than 100% authorship. Honesty is the key here . Since then there are those that have adopted the term Mid-Tech and defined it differently than I ,which I don't agree with . I installed a dividing line between custom and Mid-Tech but failed to mention that if a knife is all subbed out it is still a PRODUCTION KNIFE. There are alot of makers and posers that think that by assembling a knife they farmed out 90% ,sharpening it and logoing it it is Mid-Tech . It is not a Mid-Tech it is primarily factory made and there for is a Production knife . Now I don't know what % authorship a knife needs to have to be called a Mid-Tech , didn't think it necessary but things bieng as they are there are those that will split hairs and do as little as possable by hand and use the term Mid-Tech where the spirit of the term is lost . Again always ask how much was hand made by the guy or gal whose name appears on the knife . Honor and Honesty are key and as much as we don't like to hear it there are some sneaky ,treacherous ,predators out there who will deliberately mislead in order to turn a quick buck . Most are credible ,honest folk just trying to make a living . Don't let the 10% ruin the credibility of the 90%.
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That should put his opinion in clear perspective. :)

To me, it is pretty simple. I judge each knife on its own merits, regardless of category, and if I feel that the knife is worth the price then it is a good buy. Custom, production, mid-tech, doesn't matter to me. I buy knives based on what I like and what I feel is worthy of my money. All comes down to personal likes and dislikes. Like they say - to each his/her own.
 
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Iv got 2 midtechs a hoback Kwaiback and an adv butcher, I love both of them but the Hoback is a step above anything iv ever handled. And at less than half the cost of the custom its a steal. Midtechs fill a void people want certain designs but can't spend thousands.
 
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