military

cbxer55 said:
All this talk about fancy steels, yet I still carry around a Military I bought new in 1996 with the good old CPM440V blade. It's done well through the years. And so should any other high end steel that makes it into these knives.



That's the old on on the left, two-screw clip.
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Agree 100%. It's the design and ergo of the model that makes it great. Not the steel.

I can't imagine anything worse than reprofiling a crappy blade grind. I've been forced to reprofile hundreds of high carbon carving knives over the decades. It's tedious. A recreational knife should be perfect by design. The Military and Paramilitary are perfect.
 
cbxer55 said:
All this talk about fancy steels, yet I still carry around a Military I bought new in 1996 with the good old CPM440V blade. It's done well through the years. And so should any other high end steel that makes it into these knives.



That's the old on on the left, two-screw clip.
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Yep. Plenty of my knives still rock one 440 variant or another, and they work just fine. I find it amusing that S30V is now viewed as very pedestrian steel.
 
I don't mind S30V but I sure wish they would do another run in BG42. Really miss that one.
 
I really don't get the fascination with titanium. I have the first TiRIL Military released into the wild.



I treasure it for obvious reasons, but compared to the regular version, it's a boat anchor. I tried carrying it, but I never came to like it as a user. I bought one of the M4/G-10/Ti Millies, but it too fell into the "boat anchor" category for me. Once I wore out my first S90V blade and transplanted the M4 blade into the CF handle, then it started seeing some pocket time. That only lasted until the M390/CF version came out, though.

My personal opinion is that those calling for titanium integral lock Millies have completely missed the point of the Military. As for a clone in FRN with a backlock and H-1 for under a hundred bucks, dream on. You'd be lucky to get that package for under $200. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a great knife and I'd love to have one, but it would require all new tooling, engineering, prototyping, testing and development. That isn't going to happen for that price point. There is a reason all the Salt folders have used existing designs.
 
yablanowitz said:
I really don't get the fascination with titanium. I have the first TiRIL Military released into the wild.



I treasure it for obvious reasons, but compared to the regular version, it's a boat anchor. I tried carrying it, but I never came to like it as a user. I bought one of the M4/G-10/Ti Millies, but it too fell into the "boat anchor" category for me. Once I wore out my first S90V blade and transplanted the M4 blade into the CF handle, then it started seeing some pocket time. That only lasted until the M390/CF version came out, though.

My personal opinion is that those calling for titanium integral lock Millies have completely missed the point of the Military. As for a clone in FRN with a backlock and H-1 for under a hundred bucks, dream on. You'd be lucky to get that package for under $200. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a great knife and I'd love to have one, but it would require all new tooling, engineering, prototyping, testing and development. That isn't going to happen for that price point. There is a reason all the Salt folders have used existing designs.
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First of all, I have various millies and prefer the ti to the lighter g10 versions. I could be entirely missing the point or maybe its just a matter of different strokes for different folks.

With regard to a lockback designed after the Millie, yeah, I imagine you are right that we'd probably be looking at that $200 price point for the original version which would almost surely be made in g10 like the stretch 2. Were it to become popular though I'm not sure why it couldn't be made in frn around the $100 price point. The Pacific Salt is a 3.75" frn lockback salt that can be bought for $75. A 4" knife with the same materials and lock for $100 doesn't seem so unrealistic.
 
The Pacific Salt is a 3.75" lockback made using the existing molds and much of the other existing tooling from the Endura3, long since paid for by producing and selling many thousands of Enduras. Most of the R&D was already done for the Endura, leaving much less development than would be needed for an entirely new model. FRN is less expensive to produce once the tooling is complete, but FRN molds are expensive to make ($40K to $75K from what Sal has posted in the past). They have to recoup those costs somehow, and in a reasonable length of time if they want to stay in business. Can anyone guarantee they will be able to sell 75,000 Military Salts in a year? I certainly can't. As much as I love the Military, I think I'd have to bet against it. I'm certainly in no position to fund the attempt for them.
 
yablanowitz said:
The Pacific Salt is a 3.75" lockback made using the existing molds and much of the other existing tooling from the Endura3, long since paid for by producing and selling many thousands of Enduras. Most of the R&D was already done for the Endura, leaving much less development than would be needed for an entirely new model. FRN is less expensive to produce once the tooling is complete, but FRN molds are expensive to make ($40K to $75K from what Sal has posted in the past). They have to recoup those costs somehow, and in a reasonable length of time if they want to stay in business. Can anyone guarantee they will be able to sell 75,000 Military Salts in a year? I certainly can't. As much as I love the Military, I think I'd have to bet against it. I'm certainly in no position to fund the attempt for them.
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I see your point and no, I can't guarantee how many frn lock back "millies" they could sell though I suspect it would be a popular knife and obviously, the design would not need to be exclusive to the salt line any more than the Pacific Salt and Salt 1 are. A good counter argument to some of your points would be the Stretch 2. Much of the same work has to go into that knife. New design, new frn molds. Yet nobody thinks its crazy or financially irresponsible that they are considering making an frn variant. Are we certain that the Stretch 2 will outsell an frn lb Military? Do you expect the frn stretch 2 (if they make one) to be vastly more expensive than the current frn stretch?

Anyway, I definitely understand your points and they are all valid and pertinent. Also, I'm not trying to make one of those Mickey Mouse, kindergarten "Sal, make me my dream knife" threads. I do actually believe though that an frn variant of the Military would appeal to a large audience. I have no idea if a feasible end product would be anything like the knife I outlined...just brainstorming. :)
 
I haven't followed Stretch development, but I don't recall hearing anything about an H-1 Stretch2 being available for under a hundred bucks. From what Sal has posted in the past, H-1 is very expensive steel, and not the easiest to work with on a production line. I gathered that the Salt folders were all made with existing tooling because it was the only was to bring them out at a price point that would sell. I also think an FRN version of the Military would have wide appeal, I just think adding in a lock change and H-1 steel and expecting it to sell for less than a hundred is unrealistic.
 
The Stretch was referenced because Sal made a Stretch 2 in G10 and ZDP-189. If the sales are favorable, then an investment in new molds will be made to make FRN Stretch 2's. Assumably in VG-10 and ZDP-189. So no H1 Stretch, but an educated guess would put a Stretch 2 in FRN and VG-10 at $80 street price. Spyderco doesn't price its product high initially to cover the investment and then lower it later. I imagine like most companies, they calculate estimated annual sales and figure an estimated break even point. Based on total price of knife and what steel said knife has I would guess H1 is in between VG10 and ZDP-189 price wise. None of them are cheap as most Japanese steels end up not being.
 
One thing being better does not make the previous thing bad. As with everything in the physical world, to increase one quality you have to reduce another. It's a question of suitability to task. There is no best steel.

S30V does many things objectively better than some of the other steels you mentioned, particularly corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening. It's got bigger carbides than those steels, which means it will still slice long after the shaving edge is gone, making it a great choice for an EDC.

3V is four times tougher, but has inferior wear resistance to S30V.
M4 is tougher and more wear resistant, but it rusts if you look at it funny.

Saying S30V is bad because higher-tech steel exists is like saying a Corolla is a terrible car because the Veyron exists: it just ain't factually so.

(I will take issue also with your claim that XHP is a better steel than S30V; XHP is essentially a powdered-metal version of 440C.)
 
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I do claim XHP to be better than S30V. In fact, S30V is the last respectable SS I would pick and XHP is the first or second I'd pick. Your entire argument goes against your last statement. You make good points about giving up this for that then throw all that out the window with your last comment. Everyone has preferences and can sacrifice certain things but not others. It's all over opinion which is better ultimately
 
rpn said:
Knifeworks has a sprint coming with an integral lock, carbon scale and s90v.

Looking forward to that one!
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I'm waiting for the green one…still. It's been 7.5 months since I've heard anything. Lol.
I honestly don't care what the steel is on my knives. I'm more particular about the handle color and materials, ha.

Surfingringo said:
An FRN clone of the military (same shape and size) with backlock and 4 way clip. Made in Japan with serrated H1 blade. All in a sub $100 package. BAM!!
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Now you're talking my language. I love FRN and back-locks, and serrated H1 ain't shabby either. Ti and CF are not for me. :)
 
I'm probably missing the point but I prefer the Ti Millie over the G10 version all day long. Same with the PM2, I switch my scales to Casey Lynch AL and love the feel over G10. I just like a bit of heft to my knives.

Mike

yablanowitz said:
I really don't get the fascination with titanium. I have the first TiRIL Military released into the wild.



I treasure it for obvious reasons, but compared to the regular version, it's a boat anchor. I tried carrying it, but I never came to like it as a user. I bought one of the M4/G-10/Ti Millies, but it too fell into the "boat anchor" category for me. Once I wore out my first S90V blade and transplanted the M4 blade into the CF handle, then it started seeing some pocket time. That only lasted until the M390/CF version came out, though.

My personal opinion is that those calling for titanium integral lock Millies have completely missed the point of the Military. As for a clone in FRN with a backlock and H-1 for under a hundred bucks, dream on. You'd be lucky to get that package for under $200. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be a great knife and I'd love to have one, but it would require all new tooling, engineering, prototyping, testing and development. That isn't going to happen for that price point. There is a reason all the Salt folders have used existing designs.
Click to expand...
 
nccole said:
I do claim XHP to be better than S30V. In fact, S30V is the last respectable SS I would pick and XHP is the first or second I'd pick. Your entire argument goes against your last statement. You make good points about giving up this for that then throw all that out the window with your last comment. Everyone has preferences and can sacrifice certain things but not others. It's all over opinion which is better ultimately
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i also think xhp is better then s30pooo
 
XHP is stainless D2. Higher carbon content than 440C.

The Millie would have to be heavier in a lock-back.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
XHP is stainless D2. Higher carbon content than 440C.

The Millie would have to be heavier in a lock-back.

sal
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True, I think the Pacific Salt fits the bill. Unless you do a Military in LC200n. I'm assuming the Tusk wasn't the only one that gets to use that steel. I love the Tusk and it is one of the finest tools I own but I have not put that steel to extended use.
 
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