Mill questions

[Chant]

So confused...

The HF mini-mill is out -- I've run across too many horror stories on the web, and, being in Canada, I'll have no recourse with HF if I get a bad machine.

Grizzly is out, as they won't ship here.

Sherline and Taig come recommended (highly, for smaller projects), but I worry that they'll be slow.

The big 600lb+ "knees" will be fast and powerful, but they'll be hell to get in and out of the basement (I'm moving within the next couple of years), and they're pricing (though, when you consider the features you have to pay extra for on taig/sherline, the price difference is actually pretty small).

Then there is the X3, which is a "small mill" that seems to sit between the "mini" and larger knee mills???

Initially, I want to quickly and easily create guards, taper tangs, dovetail bolsers/handles, mortise handles, and maybe cut shoulders. Eventually, I'll want to foray into folders. Given warranty issues, I'd rather deal with a Canadian dealer (have found ones for sherline, taig and craftex, but not for X3 yet).

Will the mini sherlines and taigs do what I want in a reasonable time? I don't want to spend an hour tapering a tang. Is a 600lb knee mill complete overkill? As I said, the cost is only marginally more, considering all it comes with.

The local busy bee has workshops on how to use mills, but they don't carry mini mills, so I can't compare.

Edited to add: I've already made two bad purchases - a cheap drill press and a cheap bandsaw -- I don't want to make another, so any advice appreciated. I'd especially like to hear from anyone who used to use a Sherline or Taig, and then got a bigger machine. How much time/effort does the bigger machine save you? Do you still use the sherline/taig for some things?

 

[bigbcustom]

I would recommend that which ever machine you get to make sure it has an R-8 collet system. Some of the mini mills and combo machines have a Morris taper that holds the cutter in. There is no positive way to hold the cutter holder in the machine, just the friction from the taper. If you take a heavy cut the spiral flutes on an end mill will pull the holder out of the arbor.

I haven't used anything with morse taper collets, but it is my understanding that they use a draw bar just like the R8 collets do. That being said, I wouldn't purchase anything with morse taper collets unless there was no way around it due to the fact that morse tapers are not self releasing whereas R8's are.

 

[bigbcustom]

As long as Bob at lathemaster is alive, you won't have any warranty problems (he is just that dedicated to customer service).

For most of what you want to do, you would be able to get by with one of the smaller mills, but you will have to take lighter cuts, and have a bunch of patience (you will always need lots of patience doing machine work lol...at least I do). As far as size goes, you can always use a larger work envelope and more power. Do you subscribe to the mini-mill group on yahoo? If you do, there are a bunch of users all over the U.S. and Canada, and I bet one of them would be happy to let you come on over and check out his shop. If you haven't done any mill work before, I would suggest finding someone that will give you some hands on instruction before making the plunge with one of the smaller mills (any mill, but you don't want to get a little one and be unhappy because it won't do what you want it to). Many times, model builder supply shops that sell the little machine tools will have a demo day or some such.

 

[jhiggins]

So confused...

The HF mini-mill is out --

Well that's it then, hey? No problem. I will endorse the Taig if that's where you are headed, although I would probably get the X3 before the Taig. were those to be my only two choices.

 

[RJ Martin]

"Initially, I want to quickly and easily create guards, taper tangs, dovetail bolsers/handles, mortise handles, and maybe cut shoulders.

Take it from someone who has used Taigs, Bridgeports and CNC's. You aren't going to be able to do what you want on anything but a full sized mill. Not quickly, easily or accurately, anyway.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but, other than slotting guards (making about 10 passes to get through a 1/4" thick guard), the Taig won't do most of what's on your list. It's not going to taper a tang for you. You are talking about a job that requires a flycutter, and lots of stability and rigidity. Not to mention a machine that can accomodate and firmly hold whatever fixture you set up to do these jobs.

Find a used Bridgeport, hire a rigger and go from there.

 

[Chant]

"Initially, I want to quickly and easily create guards, taper tangs, dovetail bolsers/handles, mortise handles, and maybe cut shoulders.

Take it from someone who has used Taigs, Bridgeports and CNC's. You aren't going to be able to do what you want on anything but a full sized mill. Not quickly, easily or accurately, anyway.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but, other than slotting guards (making about 10 passes to get through a 1/4" thick guard), the Taig won't do most of what's on your list. It's not going to taper a tang for you. You are talking about a job that requires a flycutter, and lots of stability and rigidity. Not to mention a machine that can accomodate and firmly hold whatever fixture you set up to do these jobs.

Find a used Bridgeport, hire a rigger and go from there.

I'd rather have my parade rained on before I spend the money. Thanks .

One I am looking at is: 2HP 220V, 9 speed, 950lb knee mill with 3" face mill capacity, 200-2300 RPM, 6" x 26" table surface, 0-12" spindle to table surface, with XYZ of 14x6x14.75. I sure looks like it could handle what I want to do. The salesman says it will (but he's trying to make a sale, of course). It also has a 1" drill capacity and 45d left/90d right head tilt. The shop would help me get set up and trained.

I'm assuming this will be big enough, but if not, please speak up!

 

[bigbcustom]

"Initially, I want to quickly and easily create guards, taper tangs, dovetail bolsers/handles, mortise handles, and maybe cut shoulders.

Take it from someone who has used Taigs, Bridgeports and CNC's. You aren't going to be able to do what you want on anything but a full sized mill. Not quickly, easily or accurately, anyway.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but, other than slotting guards (making about 10 passes to get through a 1/4" thick guard), the Taig won't do most of what's on your list. It's not going to taper a tang for you. You are talking about a job that requires a flycutter, and lots of stability and rigidity. Not to mention a machine that can accomodate and firmly hold whatever fixture you set up to do these jobs.

Find a used Bridgeport, hire a rigger and go from there.

I have cut dovetails in 1911 slides, used a flycutter on mild steel, and done other tasks equivalent to what you are talking about on an X3 without any problems whatsoever (admittedly not as quickly or easily as on a bridgeport), for the money, they are nice machines. As nice as a good used Bridgeport? no, not even close. Can I get an X3 for a whole lot less than a GOOD used Bridgeport? You bet. Will an X3 handle the little things that you would need it to do on small projects? With a little patience and practice on your part, I am of the opinion that it would be no problem. The X3 is a lot more machine than the mini mill that was referenced earlier by Mr. Higgins and he gets by with his mini. I am not a professional machinist, and I am not nearly as knowledgeable as many people about these things, but I have had good results on small projects on an X3. A used bridgeport would be an order of magnitude better, but it would weigh 5 times as much, might require a 3 phase converter, be a holy terror to move, and eat up a pile of shop space. If you had the means and the space, then yes the Bridgeport would definitely be the way to go, but from your posts, I am guessing that you would rather not go that far as of yet. Also keep in mind that once you get the mill, you will spend the cost of the mill plus some in tooling for it. Hold downs, good vise, collets, end mills, fly cutter, parallels, indicators, and later you will want a rotary table, maybe a tail stock to go with it so you can do horizontal milling operations such as gear hobbing etc. Machine tools are like anything else, you get started cheap then things start adding up.

 

[bigbcustom]

I'd rather have my parade rained on before I spend the money. Thanks .

One I am looking at is: 2HP 220V, 9 speed, 950lb knee mill with 3" face mill capacity, 200-2300 RPM, 6" x 26" table surface, 0-12" spindle to table surface, with XYZ of 14x6x14.75. I sure looks like it could handle what I want to do. The salesman says it will (but he's trying to make a sale, of course). It also has a 1" drill capacity and 45d left/90d right head tilt. The shop would help me get set up and trained.

I'm assuming this will be big enough, but if not, please speak up!

That one will blow the X3 out of the water as far as I can tell by looking at the picture and reading the description. I am assuming you are speaking about the $2100.00 mill. At this price point, you are starting to approach and realm of used bridgeports though lol. I haven't used anything like that one, my experience is limited to a Bridgeport, a full size Vectrex, a friend's X3, and a friend's mini-mill. The more power and larger work envelope you can afford, the happier you will be in the end since I am sure you will do much more than just knifework on it. You will probably get the itch for a good metal lathe shortly after you start working with your mill and then it's on. When I was growing up, my father hand a lathe and a mill and when something broke, we just made a new one (part). Fixed things like snow blowers, wood working tools, etc. When you have a few machine tools, you can make/fix almost anything. Time for me to quit rambling now. Good luck :thumbup:

 

[jhiggins]

Well the debate rages on. I still say a big knee mill, Bridgeport or otherwise is too much mill for a novice knifemaker, let alone anyone who has never used a mill before. I've been a machinist most of my life, and I'm a full-time maker. EVEN I DON'T HAVE a Bridgeport in my shop. I make all my tappers on my Jet mill-drill, which I will admit is a bit embarrassing considering my long work history running BPs and other very nice equipment.

I'm trying to say that if I can make these tappers on a cheesy Jet JMD-18, you can mill some guard slots and do just about anything else in knifemaking on the HF mini-mill or a Taig, or a Prazi, but hey its your money.

Jeff, I know the others here mean well, but seriously, dont put the cart before the horse. The mill is a sweet addition to your shop, but make some knives first! Get the essentials.

 

[Tinker Simpleton]

If you want to be really cheap, buy a vise that will move in both the "x" and "y" planes, and mount it to your drill press. Those little vises are handy even if you ever decide to get a mill.

 

[Tinker Simpleton]

Jeff:

Those tappers are such a great idea. Couple of questions, though:

1) How do you fit different sized taps in the........collet?

2) How do you hold the workpiece flush to the "tabletop"?

 

[bigbcustom]

If you want to be really cheap, buy a vise that will move in both the "x" and "y" planes, and mount it to your drill press. Those little vises are handy even if you ever decide to get a mill.

If you try to mill in a standard drill press, as soon as you put some side load on your end mill in your chuck, the jacobs taper will let go and your chuck/end mill assembly will fly through the air. You can mill wood/rubber/plastic this way, but the first time you try steel your chuck will leave your spindle. Also, if you use a drill press this way, you will lose concentric accuracy due to the spindle bearings on a drill press not being designed for side load.

 

[Chant]

Unfortunately, my drill press is too cheap for that (another reason to get a mill). I do have a dremel, but I find I can cut faster with a chainsaw file than I can with it.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. Looks like I've got some thinking to do. I'm going to wait for the mill demo on April 8th, at Busy Bee, so I have a better idea of what I'm thinking about (think I'll show up with a few guards for him to slot for me ). In the meantime, I'm going to get on with some knife designs that don't have guards. Already got three ground out, waiting for my evenheat to arrive, and three more designs finished and ready to start profiling.

 

[J. MacDonald]

Well, I've held my tongue long enough. Certainly a mill/drill is capable of doing a lot of fine work. Just look at what Higgy and Tom Anderson make. If you're talking about getting into your basement, a 600ish lb mill/drill can easily be disassembled into a couple of pieces and moved downstairs and can give you years of good service. A machine like that can be useful even if you ever do move on to a full sized mill, and will at least hold some of it's resale value. When you get to the 900lb small knee mill, you certainly get more rigidity and function, but it becomes a bigger challenge to move it downstairs. Putting a BP in your basement is a foolhardy endeavor IMHO.

But for my money, something like a Taig or similar would only be an exercise in frustration.

If you'r ever in the neighborhood, you're welcome to come by and try out my old manual Bridgy

 

[gspam1]

Jeff:

I have a Sherline lathe and mill along with full sized machine tools. The lathe is still handy for very small work such as pins. I don't use the mill very often but only because I CNC a lot of things these days. The Sherline stuff is very good but I think on the small side for what you want to do.

The truth is that nothing is ever big enough. I have a 10x54 knee mill that I wish could hog out metal faster. The trouble with buying a used piece of big iron reasonably (as has been recommended) is that you have to spend a year fixing it up. Used machine tools in good shape cost a lot more than the machine you were looking at unless you get awfully lucky.

I'd bet you'd be happy with that small knee mill you had a link too. You'll have to do some work on it (think of Chinese tools as buying a kit), but you'll be up and running quickly. Get an R8 spindle over a MT for sure - tons of cheap tooling available on eBay and machine auctions. A DRO and Powerfeed make life much easier too.

George

 

[jhiggins]

Jeff:

Those tappers are such a great idea. Couple of questions, though:

1) How do you fit different sized taps in the........collet?

2) How do you hold the workpiece flush to the "tabletop"?

1: These tappers hold from #0 to #6 taps.

2: Set the tapper on the table and put your workpiece into it. The tapper shaft is perfectly perpendicular to the work. :thumbup:

 

[jhiggins]

Well, I've held my tongue long enough. Certainly a mill/drill is capable of doing a lot of fine work. Just look at what Higgy and Tom Anderson make. If you're talking about getting into your basement, a 600ish lb mill/drill can easily be disassembled into a couple of pieces and moved downstairs and can give you years of good service. A machine like that can be useful even if you ever do move on to a full sized mill, and will at least hold some of it's resale value. When you get to the 900lb small knee mill, you certainly get more rigidity and function, but it becomes a bigger challenge to move it downstairs. Putting a BP in your basement is a foolhardy endeavor IMHO.

But for my money, something like a Taig or similar would only be an exercise in frustration.

Lots of sound advice in this, John. My motive here is to gently ease people into the world of machining by letting them off the hook a little. You know my philosophy is that we all start somewhere, but we don't hit the ground running like a paratrooper, do we? No. We need to learn, and refine our skills and as our abilities grow, we learn what our own capabilities are. We learn our limitations.

Lance Armstrong didn't start his riding career on a $10,000 racing bike. It was more likley a tricycle... or a big wheel!

So I guess that I may be outspoken in saying that I don't believe novices should blow their wad on one piece of equipment, rather that they should look toward getting the whole picture filled in first.

Do you have an adequate supply of sandpaper in grits from 220 through 2000?

Do you have a complete drill bit set with spares of the sizes you use most?

Do you have a drawer full of good clean files?

Do you have plenty of handle materials? Guard materials? Knife steels?

Screws? Pins? Belts? Glues? Tape? Solder? Flux?

Torch?

Heat Treating oven?

Forge?

Hammers?

Tongs?

Anvil?

Drill press?

Buffer?

Good lighting?

Air compressor?

Decent bench?

Ventilation?

Magnification?

respirator?

Eye protection?

Ear protection?

Apron?

Stencils and Etcher or Name stamp?

Vise?

clamps?

All these things, are in my humble opinion so much more of a priority to gather than a mill, and will cost you thousands to purchase. If anyone starting out can look at this list and truly say they dont have something on it then its of higher interest to obtain before a mill or lathe, and if you get a milll or lathe, you must realize they are for making your work better, but they will not do the job for you. A ski bunny may have the sweetest new skis and clothing on the mountain, but if she does not use them - or more to the point - if she does not even SKI, then all that nice gear is for nothing, and is wasted.

In essence, my best advice is to start small, and work your way up. Learn as you go, learn as you grow!

 

[rashid11]

the Sieg mini-mill is 99% of mill that a knifemaker needs.
Quality issues warnings & hearsay ARE NONSENS - there're none.
There WERE lots of them 4-8 years ago. The mill is SOLID, useable
outta box (after removal of red grease). Yes, as with ANY mill,
you'd have to adjust gibs and may be drivescrew nuts to get backlash
to where you like it.

Now, if one has extra $500 and extra room, go for X3. As simple
as that.

For $400 more, you can get a MUCH larger and MUCH heavier
square-column mill
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=4493


While on it, here's an interesting lathe from the same vendor/manufacturer:
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=5961

 

[bigbcustom]

Lots of sound advice in this, John. My motive here is to gently ease people into the world of machining by letting them off the hook a little. You know my philosophy is that we all start somewhere, but we don't hit the ground running like a paratrooper, do we? No. We need to learn, and refine our skills and as our abilities grow, we learn what our own capabilities are. We learn our limitations.

Lance Armstrong didn't start his riding career on a $10,000 racing bike. It was more likley a tricycle... or a big wheel!

So I guess that I may be outspoken in saying that I don't believe novices should blow their wad on one piece of equipment, rather that they should look toward getting the whole picture filled in first.

Do you have an adequate supply of sandpaper in grits from 220 through 2000?

Do you have a complete drill bit set with spares of the sizes you use most?

Do you have a drawer full of good clean files?

Do you have plenty of handle materials? Guard materials? Knife steels?

Screws? Pins? Belts? Glues? Tape? Solder? Flux?

Torch?

Heat Treating oven?

Forge?

Hammers?

Tongs?

Anvil?

Drill press?

Buffer?

Good lighting?

Air compressor?

Decent bench?

Ventilation?

Magnification?

respirator?

Eye protection?

Ear protection?

Apron?

Stencils and Etcher or Name stamp?

Vise?

clamps?

All these things, are in my humble opinion so much more of a priority to gather than a mill, and will cost you thousands to purchase. If anyone starting out can look at this list and truly say they dont have something on it then its of higher interest to obtain before a mill or lathe, and if you get a milll or lathe, you must realize they are for making your work better, but they will not do the job for you. A ski bunny may have the sweetest new skis and clothing on the mountain, but if she does not use them - or more to the point - if she does not even SKI, then all that nice gear is for nothing, and is wasted.

In essence, my best advice is to start small, and work your way up. Learn as you go, learn as you grow!

Jeff,

I agree with you completely, but I was just answering the original post. I assumed that anyone posting a question such as the one posited would have all the other bases covered. I am not a knife maker per se though I have made a few (not up to the quality of many of the guys on this forum and that's for sure). I am just a tool junkey that loves to tinker around and make things with a passion for good tools, good knives, and good guns. I am a woodworker by trade, and many things cross over (accuracy, precision, attention to detail, etc.) I was not bashing anybody's opinions or demeaning them in any way; I was just expressing my viewpoints on the topic at hand.

Brian

 

[jhiggins]

Jeff,

I was not bashing anybody's opinions or demeaning them in any way; I was just expressing my viewpoints on the topic at hand.

Brian

I never thought that for an instant, Brian! :thumbup:

I'd just hate to see Mr. Chant or anyone else here get into something they will regret. I feel like I'd be doing them a disservice if I wasn't totally clear about one such path to follow in the big forest of knifemaking. All the laths lead to where you are going, but many take you the long way around, and are fraught with peril (monetarily). I just want to see my friends here get all the info they need so that when they do come to the crossroads, they will make a quality choice, and be able to live with it.

This is why when someone who has no experience with milling machines asks a question, I want to make them very aware that some choices are simply not what they need.

Look at it this way (brace yourself for another analogy... oh yes, I DO put the "anal" in analogy, my friends):

If you never rode a motorcycle before, what would you buy to learn on. Would is be a sexy and oh-so-desireable status-symbol like a Road King, or would you perhaps tryto find a smaller bike to take your drivers test on and learn with?