Mill questions

All the advice I've received has been greatly appreciated. :thumbup: :thumbup:

I think Higgy has a bit more info about the guy asking the questions (me) than most of you -- he knows I'm just starting out, am new to power tools, and he is raising valid points in that regard, and I appreciate it.

I also appreciate hearing about the differences between minis and larger machines. I certainly wouldn't want to start learning to ride a motorbike on a 1200cc. On the other hand, when I started out in computing, I "overbought" the most powerful computer I could buy at the time, and within 6 months was using it full bore learning and compiling different programming languages. Having the top-of-the-line computer allowed me to advance much more quickly than I could have with a slower, memory-deficient machine.

However, mills (I assume) are more like motorbikes than computers. A high-end computer won't cause you bodily harm, for instance.

So...I'm still humming and hawing. One thing, though, I do think I should take a few courses at the local community college before plunging into a larger mill. And, perhaps, I should consider a good metal-cutting bandsaw first (it would be a help with guards, and would save on hacksaw blades too!).
 
Chant said:
I think Higgy has a bit more info about the guy asking the questions (me) than most of you -- he knows I'm just starting out, am new to power tools, and he is raising valid points in that regard, and I appreciate it.
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Well, you seem like an earnest chap to me, Jeff. From the pic in your avatar you appear to be a fine middle-aged man, not some young buck running around with his hair on fire. Your intelligent ponderings imply you may be in this for the long haul, and I would just want to see you start out right.

...Having the top-of-the-line computer allowed me to advance much more quickly than I could have with a slower, memory-deficient machine.

However, mills (I assume) are more like motorbikes than computers. A high-end computer won't cause you bodily harm, for instance.
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Indeed. Unlike the rather short lifespan of our PCs, not to mention the rapid obsolesence of old technology, the design of the vertical milling machine has not changed in the last 90 years. Buy with confidence that it will not be obsolete anytime within your lifetime. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

So...I'm still humming and hawing. One thing, though, I do think I should take a few courses at the local community college before plunging into a larger mill. And, perhaps, I should consider a good metal-cutting bandsaw first (it would be a help with guards, and would save on hacksaw blades too!).
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Now you are talking! :D Are you coming to our Hammer-In? I will be giving a demo on slotting a guard.
 
Thanks, Jeff! Middle-aged I am (and getting older by the minute, unfortunately), and earnest too.

I hadn't really thought about coming to the hammer-in, but after you mentioned it, I looked up what it is all about. I would like to come -- it would be great to meet some of you crazies, and see some forging going on (and see how well IG's relish works as an etchant). Also, I could load up at a harbor freight or grizzly outlet and save myself hundreds of dollars in shipping costs. It's only a 9 hour drive or so, and I'd love to drive through MA again (my wife and I honeymooned in cape cod 16 years ago).

I'm going to discuss this with my wife (baby, listen, there's this hammer-in thing, and you know how much I'm enjoying my new hobby, and how I want to try forging, and everyones gonna be there, and...:D ). Hopefully, she'll say "git 'er done", and (if there is any space left), I'll pay my dues and be there.
 
Jeff Higgins and others have given a lot of good advice. To me, there are other tools that are "more important" when starting to make knives. I place the grinder, drill press, and bandsaw at the top of my power tool list for beginners.

Jeff Chant seems to be faced with some of the same issues I had when deciding on what milling machine to buy, and I'll chime in on some of the important points - based on his situation.

1. Buy a mill that takes R8 tooling. Some of the "mini-mills" I've seen are nothing more than a glorified drill press. R8 tooling outshines regular taper tooling by versatility, ease of use, and availability.

2. Understand that buying a machine tool like a milling machine (or lathe) is only the beginning of your expense. That can actually be a good thing that will help you make a decent decision. The table size will limit how many setups you can run at a time. I have a swivel base machinists vise and a 10" rotary table set up on my mill at all times. Sure - you can't even see the table slots (100% utilization :D), but I've found those two accessories to be what I need 99 % of the time. This setup is a "work-in-progress" that has taken me years to assemble.

Buying a machine where you don't have room to add these types of accessories will limit your ability - and any machinist will tell you that the tedium of setup can get monotonous. Also, being able to add things like power feeds, VSF drives, DRO's, etc. should be part of your decision. Develop your plan on what your future needs will be and you won't go through the expense and anguish of getting rid of one so you can buy another.

3. When asking folks questions about what machine to buy, understand that you'll get opinions based on their experience. I work in a shop that has 7" spindle NC HBMs. A 9 x 42 Bridgeport is "tiny" to our company. We fill dumpsters up with tons of heavy, blue machining chips on the projects we build. I took one of my titanium pens in to show our tool room people, along with some of the cutters I use to machine them. Believe it or not, they're amazed at what I can do in my basement with bench top machines! If the subject was purely based upon chip removal (cutting efficiency) and super built-in accuracy, you'll soon have folks taking about CNC machining centers that cost more than your house and can take months to set up and program.

4. Buying from a supplier that offers service is a TOP priority. Not all of us are millwrights and, if your goal is to make knives you don't need to start that type of journeyman program. Sure, I use my tools to make jigs, fixtures, and the occasional machine part - but it's a lot easier to keep your shop running if you can get replacement parts from the place you bought the machine. It might be equally important to be able to get service as well as parts - if something goes wrong and you don't have the knowledge or tools to repair it properly.

5. Buy tools that fit your shop. Putting a Bridgeport in your basement would be a lot more difficult than taking out a few bolts and shims so you can cart the head, column, table, and base down there by yourself. I did this with my own mill, bandsaw, and lathe (although, I got help when carrying the lathe bed downstairs).

6. Always remember that upgrades and add-ons can increase your capabilities - as long as you're willing to learn how to use them. I never had the opportunity to serve in a machinist trade, so I took some unorthodox approaches on how I machine things. Nothing else matters as long as it works - and it's SAFE!

7. Get yourself a good book like MACHINE TOOL OPERATIONS by Krar, Oswald and St. Amand if you can't attend formal classes.

8. Be patient. As soon as you find yourself hurrying to make a part, you should realize that you could a.) Screw up the part, b.) screw up the cutter, c.) screw up the machine, or d.) hurt yourself (maybe all four). Safety and accuracy always win out over trying to beat the clock.

I have just about every attachment I want on my bench mill. It all started with a basic 2HP milling/drilling machine that cost less than $2k and regularly holds tolerances to within a few thousandths. It's 14 years old, but I always take good care of it...

37581249-db59-02000180-.jpg


... so, it can still turn out items like this:


56781653-7e9f-0200019B-.jpg
 
Thanks Tom, for the sound advice. I'll check out that book. Your advice about service I'll pay good heed to. I want to learn how to use the machines I'm buying, not repair them (though, of course, I'll need to learn how to adjust and maintain them).

That is an incredible pen!
 
Jeff,

Your logic and wisdom on the subject are priceless advice for a newbie. You're certainly right that almost everything that can be stuffed in a shop is more important than a mill to a knifemaker, especially if a guy's not making folders. My reply was based more on Alan's question about which mill to buy, not really considering where he was on his knifemaking journey. I wish I'd have had more advice when I was buying my tools. I'd have probably stuck with my mill/drill a lot longer as I rarely use my Bridgeport for my knifemaking as yet, and I'd have probably held out for a machine in better condition when I did make the step to a full sized mill.

My thought process was that I could buy an all manual BP and then add power feed, BRO, variable speed, etc. The reality is that I live in a used machine rich area and I could have bought a machine in better condition with all those accessories already installed for less than I'll spend getting mine where I really want it once I add in the purchase price.

The good news for me is that I bought mine cheap enough that I'll break even or take a very small loss when it's time to make the upgrade, but in hind sight I wish I'd had a bit more patience when making my buying decision.

Tom makes a lot of great points as well. The mill itself is only the beginning. All the tooling and accessories can easily add up to more than the cost of the mill, especially if you have to buy them new. But without them, a mill is just a beefy drill press.

If you guys are looking for a deal on a specific piece of tooling, let me know as I am lucky enough to live in an area that is rich in used machinery and full of old machinists that are getting rid of their home shops before they pass on. They're generally happy to find someone still interested in the stuff and will usually make some great deals on their stuff. I find great deals on tooling all the time, but have bought most everything I can think that I might need so far. Of course, if I come across the right deal on the right dividing head, I'd probably have to keep that for myself :)
 
Chant said:
Thanks, Kelly.

I stopped in to the Busy Bee store this morning. The sales guy (a nice fellow named Fred, who hand-makes muzzle-loaders on the side) steered me away from the Lathe/Mill combo.

He's pretty much got me convinced to get the following Craftex knee mill: http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture?&NETID=0753470322061021637&NTITEM=CT054

He's doing a demo on Apr 8th, so I think I'll make a decision after I watch the machine working. Bloody big things to get into a basement.
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The salesman was right in steering you toward the knee mill. It's similar to one I bought new about 15 years ago. It's everything you will need and a fine machine for the price.

Be happy the guy steered you away from a lathe/mill combo.
:rolleyes:
 
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