Mills

[Harden Knives]

Absolute CHEAPEST mill that with the right feeds/speeds/tooling/bits will be able to handle light work with Ti and carbon fiber and a little bit of steel?

Just curious and might be looking for a mill one of these days.

Thanks in advance,
Alex.

 

[synthesist]

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There are many variations of the 2 range variable speed, Sieg SX2 Mini Mill from different companies (various brands sold in the U.S. include Grizzly (green one-pictured on the left in the picture above), Central Machinery (red one-Harbor Freight pictured in the middle in the picture above), Microlux (Micro-Mark) and LittleMachineShop (the high-end price spread version of the X2, white one-pictured on the right in the picture above)), with Harbor Freight’s

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likely being the cheapest you’ll find ( especially if you apply one of their supercoupons or hit a parking lot sale at a store). You might go even cheaper by finding one of these on CraigsList. Note here that I’m in not suggesting that the HF version is ideal or even, ultimately. a good deal. You will also need tooling, plan on spending about the same amount of cash (as you spent on the base machine that is) on things like a vice/clamp set, R8 collet sets, a keyless chuck, cutters, an indicol and dial indicator etc.

You will see these pups in the internet shop tour photos of many knifemaker’s shops and they can be set up to do a decent job on “light work with Ti and carbon fiber and a little bit of steel.” There are also many internet articles on modding these types of machines to make them more rigid and ease tramming them. Getting one of these suckers straight, square and plumb in all 3 axes is an adventure the first time you try it (ask me how I know this)

You can find a lot more information @:

http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_mill/reviews/sieg_sx2/sx2.htm

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Introduction/Introduction.htm

http://makezine.com/2011/11/23/the-sieg-mini-mill-one-manufacturer-many-brands/

http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/minimill_compare.php

My last comments are these: Your personal mileage may vary and buy once cry once


Corey "synthesist" Gimbel

 

[Drew Riley]

When it comes to milling machines, "cheap" and usable may not go together very well. The smaller import mills often need to be disassembled, deburred, cleaned up, and otherwise modified to make them a decent machine.

Plan on spending as much (if not more) on tooling and work holding as you do on the mill.

Bigger is usually better. You can do small work on a big machine, but not big work on a small machine.

Often the best option is finding a used mill that was taken care of and comes with a fair amount of tooling and whatnot. That said, let the buyer always beware. There may be a good reason that the mill is being sold.

 

[Harden Knives]

​

There are many variations of the 2 range variable speed, Sieg SX2 Mini Mill from different companies (various brands sold in the U.S. include Grizzly (green one-pictured on the left in the picture above), Central Machinery (red one-Harbor Freight pictured in the middle in the picture above), Microlux (Micro-Mark) and LittleMachineShop (the high-end price spread version of the X2, white one-pictured on the right in the picture above)), with Harbor Freight’s

​

likely being the cheapest you’ll find ( especially if you apply one of their supercoupons or hit a parking lot sale at a store). You might go even cheaper by finding one of these on CraigsList. Note here that I’m in not suggesting that the HF version is ideal or even, ultimately. a good deal. You will also need tooling, plan on spending about the same amount of cash (as you spent on the base machine that is) on things like a vice/clamp set, R8 collet sets, a keyless chuck, cutters, an indicol and dial indicator etc.

You will see these pups in the internet shop tour photos of many knifemaker’s shops and they can be set up to do a decent job on “light work with Ti and carbon fiber and a little bit of steel.” There are also many internet articles on modding these types of machines to make them more rigid and ease tramming them. Getting one of these suckers straight, square and plumb in all 3 axes is an adventure the first time you try it (ask me how I know this)

You can find a lot more information @:

http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_mill/reviews/sieg_sx2/sx2.htm

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Introduction/Introduction.htm

http://makezine.com/2011/11/23/the-sieg-mini-mill-one-manufacturer-many-brands/

http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/minimill_compare.php

My last comments are these: Your personal mileage may vary and buy once cry once


Corey "synthesist" Gimbel

Thanks man. Lots of awesome info right there.

 

[Harden Knives]

When it comes to milling machines, "cheap" and usable may not go together very well. The smaller import mills often need to be disassembled, deburred, cleaned up, and otherwise modified to make them a decent machine.

Plan on spending as much (if not more) on tooling and work holding as you do on the mill.

Bigger is usually better. You can do small work on a big machine, but not big work on a small machine.

Often the best option is finding a used mill that was taken care of and comes with a fair amount of tooling and whatnot. That said, let the buyer always beware. There may be a good reason that the mill is being sold.

Yeah, that makes sense. Hopefully I will get my hands on a mill in the next five years but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Thanks again.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Been using a tiny Shirline here for around 15 years and it has done way more than it was designed to do! Still use it, but got one of these http://littlemachineshop.com/3960 a couple years ago and have been more than pleased with it. I would avoid Harbor Freight!

 

[synthesist]

I sorta/kinda HINTED that the low price spread here wouldn't be my first choice (I own one that is heavily modded (way, wayy, wayyyyyyyy too much $$$ in it trying to make it into something its ethnic heritage will not allow) but because he wanted the CHEAP one I pointed him at it.

I wouldn't buy one of these again. I'd find a way to get a big boy mill that uses my R8 tooling from it though and fit it in somehow.

That's why I said "Your personal mileage may vary and Buy once cry once"

Corey

 

[Don Hanson III]

I sorta/kinda HINTED that the low price spread here wouldn't be my first choice (I own one that is heavily modded (way, wayy, wayyyyyyyy too much $$$ in it trying to make it into something its ethnic heritage will not allow) but because he wanted the CHEAP one I pointed him at it.

I wouldn't but one of these again. I'd find a way to get a big boy mill that uses my R8 tooling from it though and fit it in somehow.

That's why I said "Your personal mileage may vary and Buy once cry once"

Corey

Well, we are on the same page, Corey. Good info you put up!

 

[12345678910]

the larger the better, mass = stability and more options.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

I've had my Sherline 5400 for 10 years with nothing but maintenance needed. A thousand dollars well spent.
I added 2,000 dollars to that this year and upgraded to a 10,000 rpm spindle with new high speed Teflon coated screws and saddle along with the 3 axis cnc upgrade.
If I'd purchased a cheaper machine ten years ago I wouldn't be making the step up to the high speed machine today. So saving to buy a good sound machine in the beginning can pay off down the road.
Fred

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

For cutting knife steel and getting reasonable surface finish and tool life you need mass and rigidity.

My tiny Romi minimill (12"X16" travels, it is a minimill) weighs a little north of three tons. And it can just barely manage a 3/8" endmill properly in things like high carbon steel and titanium etc. It doesn't lack power, it lacks heft.

There's lots of old good iron out there. For the materials that a knifemaker works with you will be frustrated and spend more time and tooling budget trying to get a very small mill to do the job. Yes, you can use small cutters and take shallow cuts, but a simple job takes all day and several cutters. This is one area where there is no substitute for a tight heavy machine. If you can find a deal on a heavy old mill in good condition (they're out there) and you're planning to actually really use it for machining, you'll be better off. If you're going to by new chicom get something pretty stout because most of those are for aluminum.

 

[synthesist]

Sometimes in life you just have to suck it up and spend the $$$$$.

SOMEHOW​

Example: My Bader II belt grinder, by all rights, should be well past its sell by date (it's over 20 years old) but since it was so solid to begin with, and with occasional mods/upgrades, it keeps on trucking. When I bought it (at Tim Wright's insistence btw and good advice that was) I was lucky, my electrical engineer Father In Law built me a speed controller to go with the 1 hp TEFC DC motor he came up with somewhere and I had a variable speed unit from day one, but it was a still a bit of a $$$ stretch at the time. Now that price amortizes to, perhaps, $125 a year and goes down with each passing year and it will sell for more than I have in it someday when I pass it along (or pass on, whichever comes first). On the other hand the Shopsmith 10" tablesaw I bought about the same time, which, admittedly, has also done a yeoman job, is worth, 10-20% of what it cost at the time, premium Forrest saw and dado blades be damned.

I can only say that I know that $$$ can be tight for lots of people. You HAVE to buy the best tools you can and save up to buy them eventually if you have the patience, hence the buy once cry once comment. Your art/work will improve with the better tools. At the same time many, many knives have been made by hand, with files, or bench grinders, and sandpaper, heat-treated over charcoal, quenched in god knows what and handled with whatever wood was handy, so we know it can be done and was for many, many years.

I bought the Harbor Freight from someone here at BladeForums and while it was a decent deal $$$wise the seller jerked me around pretty good, to the point where if he was the last knifemaker on the planet I'd use my teeth instead of a tool he made. I paid some tuition that time and, subsequently, when I tried to make that tool into something it can't be. I'd have been far better off $$$wise going to auctions looking for a decent Bridgeport to buy.

Now we have Craigslist and the internet which abounds with deals all over the country. It's a different time now and life is too short to use crap tools. Sherline was mentioned twice above and for what that machine weighs it's a quality tool but not really a quality tool for working modern tool steels IMHO.

Corey "synthesist" Gimbel

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

Any mill is better than no mill. Period.
I bought my Grizzly in '99 or 2000.
It has helped me build and assemble well over 400 take-down knives, including squaring of handle material, squaring of guard and spacer materials, slotting and drilling of guards, locating and drilling alignment pin holes, etc., etc., etc.
And now, folders.
Not to mention fabricating and building countless shop tools and accessories.
Do not - EVER!! - let any one tell you that you need a big mill to make knives.
They're selling their own agenda.

I have since acquired a much larger mill with a power feed to help me deal with larger projects and more mass when needed, but I still use my mini-mill on each and every knife.
It's just too handy not to.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Any mill is better than no mill. Period.
I bought my Grizzly in '99 or 2000.
It has helped me build and assemble well over 400 take-down knives, including squaring of handle material, squaring of guard and spacer materials, slotting and drilling of guards, locating and drilling alignment pin holes, etc., etc., etc.
And now, folders.
Not to mention fabricating and building countless shop tools and accessories.
Do not - EVER!! - let any one tell you that you need a big mill to make knives.
They're selling their own agenda.

I have since acquired a much larger mill with a power feed to help me deal with larger projects and more mass when needed, but I still use my mini-mill on each and every knife.
It's just too handy not to.

The Sherline I bought 17 years ago weights28 pounds and has been used on more than 600 knives. Slotting damascus steel guards/spacers and work on 300+ automatics. The LMS mill I got 2 years ago is HUGE compared to the Sherline. Technique & good cutters are critical here.

Lot of good info here and Karl's advice is spot on.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Do not - EVER!! - let any one tell you that you need a big mill to make knives.
They're selling their own agenda.

I'm not trying to sell an agenda here, but the OP want's to mill titanium. I haven't really looked at your work critically, but I've seen Don's up close and it speaks for itself. There's always an argument to be made that it is the musician, not the instrument. Look what Tai Goo can do without electricity.

But, that said, you have to admit there is a tendency to try to skimp in ways that's pennywise and pound foolish. Titanium is not easy to mill, there are minimum chiploads in that to prevent rubbing that require cutting forces more than 10X greater than you'd see in the same cut in aluminum. Can you do it? Probably. Can you forge Damascus with a 16 oz framing hammer? Probably. But wouldn't it be sound advice to steer someone towards something a bit more appropriate for the application?

Those little mills are made for aluminum and light cuts in steel. Annealed tool steel is pretty borderline and titanium is just not a great idea.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

You are correct. Sometimes proper tooling makes all the difference.
But don't think you have to have before you can do.

Can you forge Damascus with a 16 oz framing hammer? Probably. But wouldn't it be sound advice to steer someone towards something a bit more appropriate for the application?

 

[Don Hanson III]

I'm not trying to sell an agenda here, but the OP want's to mill titanium. I haven't really looked at your work critically, but I've seen Don's up close and it speaks for itself. There's always an argument to be made that it is the musician, not the instrument. Look what Tai Goo can do without electricity.

But, that said, you have to admit there is a tendency to try to skimp in ways that's pennywise and pound foolish. Titanium is not easy to mill, there are minimum chiploads in that to prevent rubbing that require cutting forces more than 10X greater than you'd see in the same cut in aluminum. Can you do it? Probably. Can you forge Damascus with a 16 oz framing hammer? Probably. But wouldn't it be sound advice to steer someone towards something a bit more appropriate for the application?

Those little mills are made for aluminum and light cuts in steel. Annealed tool steel is pretty borderline and titanium is just not a great idea.

Nathan, you come from a machinist background, with production in mind. I don't know anything, except how to get what I need done on my knives. Milling is the smallest part of my work here, actually most of my knives never see a milling machine.

But what you get done on a mill is absolutely incredible. You are the man! You do have my respect, bud!

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

^^^ Every year I go by your table and just drool at your work. I think I might have introduced myself once "Hey, I'm Nate, ...duh..."

People do have a remarkable ability to do a lot with whatever they got. Sometimes the fanciest tools won't make your work any better, but it usually helps.

 

[HallHandmade]

I am a former professional machinist, with experience from the mini machines up to larger industry CNC units.


Without being excessively negative, the smaller machines can be limited, but you can still make a decent part or two when needed, and they can be really handy in that way.

They are a solution for me at the moment, because I am not in a situation where I can drop a Bridgeport in my current shop space. If I could, that's what I would have purchased.

I have the g0463 mill and g4000 lathe. I think they are the minimum I personally would be happy with, but they get the job done for my limited use and have traveled with me from rental to rental as my fiance and I prepare to purchase a home.

Additionally, the g0463 uses R8 tooling which can be shared with a Bridgeport, which I consider a pretty huge thing.

Incidentally, knifemaking is one thing these small machines work exceptionally well for (compared to trying to use them for more traditional machining tasks).

A downside is that I feel these are kind of terrible machines to start on. They are tricky to get good results sometimes, and that is with my almost two decades of accumulated tricks and hints, and experience with machine maintenance and tuneup. A lot of successful machining is a careful (and sometimes loose) dance across fine lines.

Either way, if you are ready to accept their limitations, and be willing to go easy on them and learn their quirks, they can be incredibly useful and profitable machines for those that are unable to go with a larger machine.

I can move my mill and lathe with a cheap engine hoist, whereas many folks would have to spend $$$ to have their Bridgeport moved, or call in an expensive favor from a friend. Once I have a more permanent shop, that won't be a problem.

I use my mini machines for:

-Cutting guard and spacer slots
-Milling frame handle pockets
-Squaring/Flattening material
-Milling fullers
-Drilling tang sockets (starting them off with an end mill gives you a good start for the drill, and drilling with rigid tooling keeps the sockets lined up)
-Drilling/boring pin and lanyard tube holes
-Starting the tang taper on thicker stock full tangs
-Making tooling for my 2x72, and I even used the machines to build the grinder itself.

It performs all of these tasks quite admirably.

Edit: Here's a shot of the upgraded flat platen attachment I built using exclusively my mini machines. It's a hack-together from random scrap, but it runs super clean and is built to last. I can switch from hollow to flat grinding very easily, just rotate the support plate and change the tool rest position. Not perfectly engineered, but the machining came out solid enough for me to have a good working tool, which is fine by me.

 

[Don Hanson III]

^^^ Every year I go by your table and just drool at your work. I think I might have introduced myself once "Hey, I'm Nate, ...duh..."

People do have a remarkable ability to do a lot with whatever they got. Sometimes the fanciest tools won't make your work any better, but it usually helps.

I'd like very much to meet you, Nate. Do stop by next week and introduce yourself. Table 10DD