Minimalist Water Purification

DGG said:
Easiest way is 8 drops of bleach per gallon of water...
I'd like to see a definitive source on this. I've seen people recommend everything from 4 to 5 to 7 to 8... and based on the amount of chlorine present in the bleach, even more.

Overuse or underuse of bleach can be dangerous. Can we get consensus on this?
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Likely not, it depends on the nature of the water strongly and it is possible that you have to repeat it so you can get multiples of a dose. Straight from Clorox :

http://www.rense.com/general2/watrpur.htm

and the Depathment of Health :

http://www.rense.com/general2/watrpur.htm

many cites are just repeating these without noting the source.

-Cliff


The MSD sheets don't list either chemical as harmless especially when ingested. Granted, this is much, much higher concentrations than what is in Clorox. I do remember one of the criticisms about Clorox was it was a known carcinogen. Of course again, in what doses? Personally I don't use it. I would use iodine. It is effective, over the short term it is harmless in the body, it’s actually needed by the body, and the taste can easily be removed after it has done its work by adding vitamin C tablets (ascorbic acid). Of course contact time depends on turbidity, iodine concentration, and water temperature.

I am talking about a couple of gallons of water to be treated. If I had a disaster and I needed to treat a swimming pool for drinking I would use a combination of filtering and the pool chemical shock treatments which include chlorine. Again, it depends on the situation for me.

YMMV,
KR
 
I agree on the consensus vs. fact point. I worry that using bleach to purify water is one of those old saws that lots of people recommend but very few of us have tried.

I have not tried it, and would prefer not to until I know the exact ratios.

I agree with kr1 on iodine, which would be a better choice, but perhaps not as easy to obtain in an emergency.

Who here has tried using bleach? How did you verify if the water was indeed purified?
 
Watchful said:
I agree with kr1 on iodine, which would be a better choice, but perhaps not as easy to obtain in an emergency.

Iodine can be gotten in an emergency as iodine, betadine, or povidone. It can be cut (with water) to do lots of things medical including purifying water. It can be purchased in crystal form as polar pure. It has to be kept in dark bottles as sunlight will make it break down.

Polar pure web site

Watchful said:
Who here has tried using bleach? How did you verify if the water was indeed purified?

I have used it in my well once or twice (several capfuls) to kill the little critters that create the sulphur smell that occurs sometimes. Proof is in the form that I neither :barf: or poop my insides out. :D Also, like I said, pools use chlorine all the time to purify the water. It is a recognized use of chlorine to purify water on a large scale such as in disasters.

Oh, I should mention that when I camp I almost always use my filter. The one I use is the first need. Sorry, it is actually rated as a purifier not filter. I use it properly and trust it implicitly.

First need/General Ecology website

KR
 
Incidentally, I seem to recall reading that plant matter in water, when it comes into contact with halogen purification chemicals (such as chlorine or iodine), can yield chemicals known as trihalomethanes. Trihalomethanes, IIRC, have been strongly linked to miscarriage--so, if your survival group may be entertaining ideas of replenishing its numbers internally (if you know what I mean), you may want to work into your preparations a filter that takes care of such chemicals. I would think that most of the carbon-based filtration systems on the market would handle this, of course--though with the difficulties attending those.
 
Watchful said:
Who here has tried using bleach?

It is very common locally, people add it to wells, thus you drink it on a regular basis.

How did you verify if the water was indeed purified?

You verify it immediately by the smell and later you verify it works as it didn't make you sick. Both (bleach/iodine) are nice to have for other reasons, bleach as a cleaning agent (you usually don't carry that much though), iodine for irrigation of wounds and cleaning areas around wounds and as an ink/paint.

-Cliff
 
I had a contaminated well once. The water stunk and it made the family ill. A sample sent into the State for testing listed "Coliform Bacteria: TNTC". This meant "too numerous to count". I treated the well as they directed with two gallons of liquid bleach, then after twelve hours, I ran the well dry, twelve hours later when it refilled I took another sample and it was clear of coliform bacteria.

The compounds formed by chlorine and organics is called chloromines. They are formed when the chlorine level is not sufficient to oxidize the organics fully, and the compound results, and has a content of nitrogen, ammonia and other elements similar to rotting vegitation. Increasing the amount of free chlorine completes the oxidation process, and results in sanitized water. I am a pool guy.

Codger
 
Codger_64 said:
The compounds formed by chlorine and organics is called chloromines. They are formed when the chlorine level is not sufficient to oxidize the organics fully, and the compound results, and has a content of nitrogen, ammonia and other elements similar to rotting vegitation. Increasing the amount of free chlorine completes the oxidation process, and results in sanitized water. I am a pool guy.

Codger

I am amazed at the wealth and breadth of knowledge available on this forum. Thanks!
 
And do not forget that hydrogen peroxide can be used to neutralize chlorine bleach after treatment if desired.
 
guyfalks said:
And do not forget that hydrogen peroxide can be used to neutralize chlorine bleach after treatment if desired.
Tell me more about that. It makes sense, but I'd rather go on your experience than my intuition.

Thanks! Interesting posts on the use of bleach.
 
Watchful said:
I agree on the consensus vs. fact point. I worry that using bleach to purify water is one of those old saws that lots of people recommend but very few of us have tried.

I have not tried it, and would prefer not to until I know the exact ratios.

I agree with kr1 on iodine, which would be a better choice, but perhaps not as easy to obtain in an emergency.

Who here has tried using bleach? How did you verify if the water was indeed purified?

http://camping.about.com/cs/generalinformation/ht/cleanwater.htm

I did what Chlorox recommended, 8 drops per gallon of clear water (16 drops if murky). We did it for three weeks when the hurricane knocked out the electricity and a boil water order went into effect (hard to do with an electric stove when there is no power). We still got tap water which was pretty clear and there was really no noticeable taste. We made lots of ice tea and lemonaid/gatoraid out of a lot of the treated water. Nobody got sick (of the 6 people and 1 dog in the family).

It was easy to do. Put the drops in, stir, wait about a half-hour for it to disseminate completely.

http://www.ehow.com/how_1295_purify-water-during.html

http://www.clorox.com/solutions_reg_bleach.php
 
2dogs said:
Watchful we don't want concensus on this issue. We want only facts. Concensus is for things that don't matter, like what is for dinner. My "opinion" is worth nothing here.

BTW Clorox won't ever be found in my house after reading about them at ILA. They are no longer listed there but I still don't buy their products.


http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=15
http://www.mindspring.com/~papercut/boycott.html
http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?cmd=print&id=336888

Could you give us a link to a site that actually lists Clorox Corporation and explains what is is they do that offends you? Only the second linked site mentions them at all, and the description of their offensive action is as follows: "?"
 
Thomas Linton said:
Could you give us a link to a site that actually lists Clorox Corporation and explains what is is they do that offends you?
I thought he just hated the taste.
 
Watchful said:
I'd like to see a definitive source on this. I've seen people recommend everything from 4 to 5 to 7 to 8... and based on the amount of chlorine present in the bleach, even more.

Overuse or underuse of bleach can be dangerous. Can we get consensus on this?

I am an engineer who specializes in public water systems. A big part of what I do is design of small treatment plants, and I have a special interest in disaster-related water treatment.

There are some basic facts about bleach that need to be understood before determining what dose to use.

1) Chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite) degrades with time. The half life, i.e., the time it takes to decude to half its effectiveness, is usually about 3 months, but varies considerably, and depends upon exposure to air and storage temperature. Newly manufactured bleach (notice I didn't say newly purchased) has a concentration of around 5.25%. 3-month old bleach therefore should be treated as though it were 2.625%, so you'd need twice as much.

2) Chlorine reacts with lots of things, but you want to use it for bugs. If you have a lot of other things in the water, they "use up" a lot of chlorine before it can kill the bugs. It is entirely possible to use up all the chlorine with non-living suspended and dissolved components in the water, so nothing is left over for bugs. You cannot tell how much chlorine the water will use up just by looking at it. However, all other things being equal, cloudy or colored water (cloudy and colored are not the same) will require a much higher dose.

3) Water temperature matters. Chemical reaction rates proceed at much slower rates in cold water. You are trying to basically burn these bugs to death with a chemical agent (gross oversimplification, but you get the idea). The bleach burns them a lot slower in cold water, so you have to let it sit a long time, sometimes hours, to get the same effect for a given dose as on a hot day.

4) Water pH matters. At pH 6.5 and below, almost all of the chlorine is in the form HOCl (hypochlorous acid). At pH 8.5 and above, almost all of it is OCl- (hypochlorite ion). HOCl is the stronger of the two, but not for some things.

5) Brand of bug matters. Some bugs are really easy to kill, some are darned near impossible to kill. Some bugs are killed more easily at low pH; some things, like some viruses, are killed more easily at higher pH.

What I do in the backcountry is first filter my water through a GOOD filter like a Katadyn, then put a couple of drops of fresh, unscented bleach in each quart or liter and let it sit for a half hour. The filter removes most things that will make you sick, plus a lot of the constituents that use up chlorine before I dose it. Good-tasting, safe water.

If you have murky water and no filter you can add a pinch of alum to a quart, shake it up, and let the snowflakes settle. Then pour the clear part off into another container (the one you drink out of, and dose that with bleach. A few drops to the quart and a half hour is my gold standard.

What I tell the guys who run the plants I design is to use their lab equipment and maintain a certain "chlorine residual" that has been determined based on a chemical analysis of the water. Often times filtration and fancier methods are involved too.

The discrepancy in the recommended bleach doses is probably based on regional needs, personal experience, and judgement. None are "wrong" per se. The "correct" dose truly depends upon things which are just not knowable in the field.

Now, what I would do in a long-term backwoods situation is build myself a slow sand filter. Lots of drinking water has been made by doing little more than trickling the water through about 4 ft of fine sand at a low rate. There is a guy who did some work with less developed societies using shallow wells in fine sandy sediment. You can just about build a decent filter using ordinary soil and a hollowed out log.

I don't have the time today to write more, but some good resources are the AWWA bookstore ( www.awwa.org ) or google for "slow sand filtration," "chlorine demand," "chloramination," and such things. A lot of the AWWA books are geared toward the people with specific educations, but there is a wealth of information aimed at people like new water utility employees, etc. with some really high quality and also accessible information.

Scott
 
Excellent info Scott! Knowing how liquid chlorox degrades, can calcium Hypochlorite be substituted? It is cheap, strong, and easily available, though it might be hard to measure unless predesolved in water.
 
Cliff, didn't someone (:D ) just warn us about mere repetition not adding anything to the weight to be given to authority?

Scott, how do you balance the greater capacity of colder water to hold chlorine in solution vs. the slower rate at which it kills "bugs" at the lower temps? I have experienced testing really hot water (just below boiling) and finding very little chlorine left after a few minutes (smelled nice however). The advice of a friend who was a microbiologist specializing in waste water treatment was to use "unheated" water for the sanitizing rinse.
 
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