Minimum Caliber for bears?

Tony Turner said:
See if you can do this and shoot 4 rounds in 3 seconds and can keep a group in a 10" pie plate (being generous here) at 25 yards, if you can't do this, do others a favor and leave the gun at home and carry pepper spray.
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That would be the first thing I would sugest to anyone, Use bear spray, dont make a gun a first choice, unless you absolutly have too.
 
I have been charged, and fake charged by blackbears several times, and dropped one once. They move fast and it is scary, so please carry something with some stopping power. I really agree with Larry from Bend about using your weapon. I shoot alot, alot lot and it makes no sense to bring a gun if you cant hit anything with it or are not familiar with it. I also agree with Tony here, and would suggest Spray as a first choice, especially if your not used to using guns.
 
shecky said:
Most .410 slugs offer relatively anemic performance, more on par with magnum handgun calibers.
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That's funny. Lots of people claim to feel quite safe with a .44mag pistol, but a .410 slug is anemic? (I don't know the muzzle energy and other stats for either, this is just an observation about what I see more-knowledgable-people-than-me recommend.) Maybe someone can clear this up for me. How DOES a .410 slug compare to a .357 or .44? Is a .410 just fine or are magnum pistols useless?
 
The noise from a 410 shotgun or .22 rifle will scare away any black bear. The game wardens here use blackcat firecrackers to chase bears out of town. Banging your pots and pans together will work equally well. If the bear comes back repeatedly though, you should move on to a different camp spot.

How many people are killed by Black bears in New York? It's happened exactly once in the entire written history of New Mexico.

-Bob
 
What's wrong with a good rifle, a 308 or a 30-06?

Forget about the .410, that's really asking for trouble. The little shotgun is probably only going to piss off the bear. Theoretically 410 slugs should be enough to finish it off, but they are so inaccurate that it is virtually impossible to place them into a vital spot of a charging animal. Most guys think a bear is going to stand up right in front of them exposing his chest, but that is often not the case. There's gotta be some guys in here who have experienced a bear charging head on. I know I have. You barely have any (!) target at all, it's a big fur ball coming at you, if you put a bullet in his coat you're a goner. You need to hit his brain or heart, and these spots are only as big as a cantaloupe, seen from the front. Even with a good rifle you may have a hard time to hit right spot, because the animal moves fast (!). In a situation like this you don't want a slug that can't even hit a pick-up truck at 40 yards. A 12 gauge with heavy buck is better as the last resort, but the bear needs to be really close. Shooting at over 25 yards is pointless, it won't drop him. If you figure that out you have about 2 seconds to shot again, because that's how long it takes him to do the 25 yards and get to you. Less than 30 feet is a good distance for buck.

I want to ad something for Gibson. .44 and .375 are not useless, but they are impractical in situations like this. If you can securely put a handgun bullet into a charging bear's brain at 20 yards you may carry whatever you want, I just don't know anybody who can, because the target is small and moving at lightning speed. In a situation like this you don't want to take any chance. A handgun is a last resort defense weapon, like when the bear is already chewing on your leg. You can hunt for 30 years and never need a handgun. I have to admit though that, if you need one, you probably need it badly.
 
a .410 has can be compared to a magnum handgun at a range up to about 30-50 yards after that it the .410 starts to lag significantly.....if you were comparing it to a rifle chambered for magnum handgun cartridges than the rifle would serve you much better....which brings the thought...both marlin and winchester make leveraction .357 mag rifles...the winchester is a compact youth model so it is easily transported and is a relatively flat gun to pack...both can handle .357 mag or .38 spcl.. that would definitely do the trick...but withou training the people are more likely to be hurt by thier own or thier acquaintances firearms than they are by a bear....that is just my opinion...everyone here might have oodles of training...so please no-one get upset....I certainly could do with ALOT more myself..but having witnessed a few shootings and after having to clean up the aftermath...I can say that adrenaline can ruin even the greatest marks man...and although HIGHLY unlikely there are few things that would get me more rattled than a large charging bear.
 
No reason to shoot at all unless the black bear is very close and acting aggressive.... and I mean close, not 50 yds. Enjoy seeing them if you get the opportunity as long as it is not in your camp after dark, and yell and wave your hands if you have to. Gun is last resort.
 
Walt-FL said:
What's wrong with a good rifle, a 308 or a 30-06?

Forget about the .410, that's really asking for trouble. The little shotgun is probably only going to piss off the bear. Theoretically 410 slugs should be enough to finish it off, but they are so inaccurate that it is virtually impossible to place them into a vital spot of a charging animal. Most guys think a bear is going to stand up right in front of them exposing his chest, but that is often not the case. There's gotta be some guys in here who have experienced a bear charging head on. I know I have. You barely have any (!) target at all, it's a big fur ball coming at you, if you put a bullet in his coat you're a goner. You need to hit his brain or heart, and these spots are only as big as a cantaloupe, seen from the front. Even withe a good rifle you may have a hard time to right spot, not to mention a slug that can't even hit a pick-up truck at 40 yards. A 12 gauge with heavy buck is better as the last resort, but the bear needs to be really close. Shooting at over 25 yards is pointless, it won't drop him. If you figure that out you have about 2 seconds to shot again, because that's how long it takes him to do the 25 yards and get to you. Less than 30 feet is a good distance for buck.
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I have had several bears charge me and yes its like you described, its a blur and your standing there or sitting there and you have a split second to make a shot but it seems like forever. If anyones wondering "how does this guy have several bears charge him?" In PA and KY I hunt black bears and put on drives, every so often people wound bears. My cousin wounded one this hunting season and it got holed up in a multi-flour rose, it came storming out at both of use and it took 2 shots to drop it and 1 more to finish it off. I have had a few bluff charge me while deer hunting over doe urine. Has anyone ever had a bear follow doe in heat? Have had it happen twice. Bears are incredibly strong, I have found huge rocks overturned on my property that must have been bears looking for grubs or whatever. i have a huge amount of respect for them, as everyone should.
 
All this talk about bears and how strong they are-- quick story :)

Some time ago, I was watching some Natl Geographic program or something like it and there were some researchers that were planning on studying Grizzlies up close in a way that had never really been done before. To that end, these guys had constructed some type of protective suit that would allow a researcher to survive unharmed from a swat from a grizzly. To test the suit, they put it on a voluteer, and then took a huge tree trunk hanging horizontal about 3-4 feet above the ground from some chains, pulled the trunk back and up several feet, and then let it fall forward and hit the volunteer. When it hit the guy, he went for what looked like a 35 foot joyride through the air and hit the ground hard. He was unhurt, which was amazing in and of itself, but even more amazing, that was the approximate force they calculated would be generated by a grizzly swat. Just seeing it on TV was awe-inspiring. In real life, it would have been even more incredible.

Yes, it is hard to believe bear spray will stop them in their tracks, but that is what experience seems to show.
 
Ditto on the 12ga. But I don't think there is enough danger to justify hauling a shotgun up and down mountains. Bear spray seems to be doing the trick. Make a little noise, stay away from cubs, and hang your food away from camp every night without fail. Eating before you camp can help too (hiking). There's more trouble with bears and vermin tearing up your gear than tearing you up.

All in all, you will be in far more danger driving to the trailhead.
 
Walt-FL and RescueRiley, thank you for your replies. You answered my question pretty well. I have no dog in this fight, so to speak, the very few, OK, exactly TWO) black bears I've seen in the woods have been perfectly happy to wander off as soon as they saw me, and I didn't have a gun anyway.

RR, there's a lot of fans of .357 and .44 lever-guns for the reasons you pointed out. I'm strongly considering a .44mag Marlin for my first deer rifle for lots of reasons, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.

oops sorry 'bout the sig line, I usually leave it off in this forum. No offense meant to anyone.
 
Bear bell on your pack (unless your hunting), Pepper Spray and the law of averages says you'll be absolutely OK. If you are going to pack a gun I would have to say pistol of no less than .41 magnum.

Rifle: 12 Gauge 590 with ghost sights is what I carry when things are spooky.
 
GibsonFan said:
Walt-FL and RescueRiley, thank you for your replies. You answered my question pretty well. I have no dog in this fight, so to speak, the very few, OK, exactly TWO) black bears I've seen in the woods have been perfectly happy to wander off as soon as they saw me, and I didn't have a gun anyway.

RR, there's a lot of fans of .357 and .44 lever-guns for the reasons you pointed out. I'm strongly considering a .44mag Marlin for my first deer rifle for lots of reasons, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.

oops sorry 'bout the sig line, I usually leave it off in this forum. No offense meant to anyone.
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I use a .44 Winchester 94 with 300 grain handloads for Boar up to 100 yards its decent.
 
Long gun:
12 ga with slugs

Handgun:
.454
.44
.41
10 mm

I like big handguns, but, as mentioned above, they take some getting used to. If you are going to carry a handgun you are not familiar with, I'd suggest bear spray with a backup handgun.

Bear Spray has had some failures to work, but so have guns. I've never been charged, but I've seen video and the video almost made me soil myself. The real deal would be rather unnerving.

Whatever you decide, PRACTICE.
 
if you own the .410 then load a slug it will be fine, if ya have something a little bigger it will be just as fine.. my arrow is producing barly over 90 lbs of kentic energy and it whips a bear to submission very fast, someone saying that you need something bigger has watched one to many movies, or maybe thats their opinion, but if your comfortable formost handling a weapon, and the .410 is all ya got, it will be more than fine.
 
How about bear bangers? Ball point pen style projectiles that explode and scare off Polar Bears. When I worked for a British company doing arctic survey work we were all issued these, and they work.

If the animal is actually "attacking" you. You need a bullet with a high cross sectional density capable of stopping a charging animal. For a 200 - 400 pound black bear, (attacks being VERY rare).410?....forget it - unless you are trying to stop a charging partridge - a 12 ga. should work, but I'd take the forementioned .308 or the 30-06 over the shotgun any day due to the penatration power available from these cartridges. For a large grizzly you need much more. The problem with a shotgun slug is a relatively low cross sectional density which gets even worse when the round impacts and then mushrooms.

There is a big difference between hunting and stopping a charge.

What type of action are you planning to use?

You will probably be in a one, maybe two shot scenario inside 200 yards if you are actually being charged by an animal and shot placement at this point is paramount. So I will reinforce the already stated need to practice! Then try to imagine what it will be like to aim and fire your rifle under extreme duress. My gun of choice for the woods? I am going to go out on a limb and suggest you try my lever action Marlin guide gun chambered in 45-70 gov't.

What are your feelings towards recoil? This gun is a lightweight, hard kicker. The advantages of swift handling, stopping power and portability outweigh the kick, IMO.

This caliber is a little on the large side, but it will work. Forgive me of course as I am unaware of your comfort threshold for recoil. ... Or maybe I watch too many movies.

Good luck.
 
I have been hiking in the Adirondacks my entire life. I assure you, bears are absolutly no concern. You are requiered to use bear canisters now for food storage. This has solved the major problem of a few years ago: bears getting into peoples food. There is certainly no problem with aggressive bears towards people. Bear spray is the most effective defence again bears, but even that isn't needed. Typically noone carries anything for bears there. Must different out west though, out here everyone carries something.
 
I grew up camping and hiking the Adirondacks. Ran into more than a few bear in that time and luckily I never had anything but stories to tell. Now I do have some friends who had scary stuff happen with bear in the same woods. They were all happy and lucky to have had powerful rifles on em at the time. One friend killed a bear that was coming through his door with a 50 cal blackpowder rifle because his 44 S&W revolver was already emptied into the very much alive bear. Turned out all the point blank shots from the pistol had slid along the skull and merely cut the bear. Only when the 50 was jammed in it's mouth and fired did it finally die. Very exciting night! Turned out to be an old dump bear looking for a meal after the state had closed the local landfill. Most of the scary stuff had occured within a short time of that. Since then I haven't heard of anything but a few cooler thieves but I still would go without something to deal with them just in case. If only to sleep better at night, get yerself a gun,bells,or spray. Now besides bear, there are other problems in that part of the world in the form of the two legged kind. Stay wary of strangers. I have had incidents with them on more than one occasion and was always happy to have avoided any trouble. Never had to pull from the holster in NY but I know on one occasion, that the shirt being moved back at the right time changed the minds/disposition of some idiots who thought they owned the trail :)
 
Guns are bad..:eek: Guns are evil..:eek: What if a bear attacks, and you have a gun, and the bear gets your gun away from you and shoots you with it?? Huh?:confused: How will you feel then??:confused: Not so smart now are ya??!!?!?!?

OK, OBVIOUSLY I am kidding here..

Seriously though. If you take the proper precautions, (Bear bag the food, in a tree; bear bells; pepper spray, etc) Your chances of seeing a bear are about nil.

I spent 2 weeks in SE Alaska while in college. We were on Admiralty Island, which is renowned for having one of the largest concentrations of Brown Bears in the world. We didn't see one the whole trip. Saw lots of fresh sign, but no live critters. We just took precautions. No cooking near the tents, hang up the dishes AND the clothes you cooked and ate dinner in, all the food was hung in a tree 100 yards away, etc. With proper precautions, doubt you'll see a bear.

Is it convenient.. Nope.

Is it safe? You becha!

If you need a gun to protect yourself from the 2 legged predator.. Trade in the 12 gauge for ole slab-sides.. A 1911!! .45 ACP baby.. ALL THE WAY!

Be safe!
 
MORIMOTOM said:
a 12 guage would definitely kill a mosquito. but id go with birdshot. those little buggers dont sit still long.
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Yes, quite true. Also, If mosquitos kill vast numbers of humans, I would use them on black bears. I say use a lever action mosquito shooting center fire on the bruins!
 
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