Mint New in Box

[T. Erdelyi]

What does that mean anymore? The knife community is different now, the ways of the porch and sippin' sweet tea, swappin' tall tales and knives is a rarity and not the norm. In this fast paced, catch and release, flippin' to make a buck internet community the back story and sometimes the history of a knife is lost in the deal.

In the old days we talked and swapped knives in a local gatherin' place, we didn't tap our phone and buy a knife unseen, without havin' handled it. Let alone from someone we never met from the other side of the globe. Most likely they got it from someone else lookin' flip it and make a quick buck. These folks tend to lose the back story on the knife and you see to a collector, an enthusiast and a user the back story, the history can be important.

Fortunately this tends to be the case with more modern knives especially production knives. Heck there's 20,000-50,000 0f them out there what back story could there be? Even with the modern style production folders there can be variations, sprint runs and with the level of some of these arm chair knife modders it's become increasingly difficult to know if you knife is in fact "mint", "New in Box", home from a "spa treatment" or just well taken care of. Believe it or not there are some of us who don't beat on our knives to test their limits. Some of us take care of them and use them in the way they were designed to be used.

Even traditional knives are bein' so expertly repaired that if it wasn't for a mark, stamp on the inside of a liner or just their initials scribed into an unobtrusive spot so that some one would know it wasn't a vintage Remington Bullet knife you might never know, this is why it's more important to keep the history and documentation available with all the packaging if available.

So what constitutes a "NIB" knife? I've seen people advertise a knife as NIB followed by the words, "Only carried a few times and only cut paper with it" or "mint" with a few snail trails and lightly sharpened. Vintage knives rebuilt, recovered and rebladed to look like a mint knife. If you weren't knowledgeable in what an original knife looked like you would never know.

Educate yourself, make this the new porch, the knowledge is here. Make friends with the more knowledgeable people, don't be afraid to learn. Everyone was new once and had to learn their way up the knowledge base they have, take advantage of the ones who already have learned, ask questions, get involved in discussions. Especially discussions on history and origins. This applies to all knives old and new, production and custom. People change/modify knives old catalog pages with line drawing show cover materials, pin finish, shield styles, blade etches and proper tang stamps can be verified through old catalogs for production knives.

The lineage of a knife is important as well, who owned it before you owned it? What mods did they have done before they flipped it on the secondary market? Documentation is important to verify the history and lineage/bloodline of a knife. The story is important and can contribute to the value of a piece as well as the condition this is why it's important to get the backstory and any proof when buyin' that next knife.

We're a community and the sharin' of the info about how to spot rebuilt, refurbished knives, counterfeits and clones is important and something to be passed on to each other in the spirit of those old collectors who sat on the steps of the courthouse and the front porches of the General Store swappin' tall tales and sharin' information about old knives. Feel free to share any of your little tells to look for on rebuilt, refurbished, counterfeit or cloned knives.

 

[Sonnydaze]

I suppose that one major factor that I would like to see is the seller's feedback. That should give me a clue, at least.

So many sellers now have moved the clip to tip-up and then still claim it's NIB, which just doesn't cut it, since that means that the knife HAS BEEN CARRIED. Or...and even worse, they change the clip back again to the factory location before they sell it...as still NIB. Of course, the "fade mark" is seen to any observant onlooker. (This trick has been known to get me mildly upset.)

I prefer to use the term..."factory new" which at least to me means factory edge, uncarried, uncut, unused... And that term works for me, even if the knife has been sitting in a guy's safe for two yrs. I am naive enough to believe that a "Factory NEW" knife may even have had SEVERAL previous careful owners. I do not have a problem if the knife has been briefly removed from the factory box for photographic reasons or to check its initial functionality.

I try NOT to buy/collect/trade non-factory knives...
But yes, I've been had a couple of times...

 

[GatorMedic]

If you're paranoid about whether a knife for sale is actually in the condition that it is listed as then just buy only brand new knives from retailers. Problem solved. As to your other rant about technology taking away the good old days, don't use the Internet then. Find a porch to sit on with your friends to talk/swap knives. Other problem solved.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Danke42]

"Card table for sale: Top badly damaged, leg missing, otherwise fine. One dollar or nearest offer."

 

[T. Erdelyi]

No rant and certainly not paranoid not sure how you came to that conclusion you may want to reread my post, just an observation after 40 years of buyin' and collectin' knives. I was lookin' for a discussion and sharin' of information. Something you apparently don't care to be part of. Question for you, why did you open this thread if not to see what info might help? Did you just open it to make it known you don't care about knives and condition or just to give a smart kurt response. Part of the problem is with all we have available, the internet bein' a huge storehouse of info there are people like yourself who aren't in it for the community.

So if not for the community and sharing of info why did you join? Certainly you can do an image search if all you want is to look and not learn or share what you've learned.

 

[Hackenslash]

Cool topic, OP! Ignore the comments that are smarmy or down-playing.

I'd like to see standards adopted for describing knife conditions. I've never sold here, but I've bought a lot of knives on the Exchange and standards for condition would be nice. I see it something like this:

NIB: Knife has never been removed from box. Seller is first owner and has never handled the knife. Seals, if present, are intact and unbroken. A second (or third, etc) owner can't sell a NIB knife.
LNIB: Knife has been removed from box to verify condition as acceptable and returned to box. Seller is first owner and has never actually handled the knife. A second owner can't sell a LNIB knife.
Carried: Knife has been removed from box, opened and closed, fondled, clip-flipped, clipped to pocket or left out of box for a period of time. Seller is first owner and can verify non-use of the knife. A second owner can't sell a Carried knife. This is probably the typical condition of most "new" knives sold here.
Light User: Knife has been carried some and used for simple tasks such as cutting paper, threads, tape etc. Seller is first owner and can verify that all use of the knife has been by them, and has been lo impact. A second owner can't sell a light user.
User: Knife has been used in a normal, non-abusive fashion. Seller may or may not be first owner, but photographic condition of the knife can attest to level of wear and use.
Heavy User: Knife has been heavily used and shows obvious wear. Scales and blade may be scratched, blade may be dull or sharpened. Dings and rubs and clip wear are all to be expected. The knife is sold "as-is" with photographic condition validating the state of the knife.
Reconditioned: Knives that have had blade swaps, spa treatments, factory repair, etc regardless of apparent condition.
Custom Production/Modded: Production knives that have had aftermarket scales, acid washes, anodizing etc regardless of apparent condition.

That might be a little hard core, but I think those are all important points to include in the description of a knife offered for sale in the community. I'm not even touching on custom knives here, I've never owned one (yet )

I've bought a lot of modded production knives here, and most of the time I know who did the mods and roughly when, but that info is really very important (to me) to include in the sale offering of a modded production knife. It's part of the history of a knife, as well as a testimony to the crafts-persons who work on them. If I post a pic of a knife that's been made special by someone, it's nice to be able to give props where due.

Now, at the end of the day I've had nothing but positive experiences here as a buyer. I've done business with good, responsible people. At the end of the day, it might just boil down to whom you choose to buy from and sell too.

 

[brancron]

These issues would be solved if people just explained themselves rather than using shorthand. It's not hard to give enough specifics to answer all questions about a knife.

I think one major issue is this: for many people, the visible appearance of the knife is the key issue, so if there are no apparent signs of use (no scratches, no wear, etc.), then the knife is, for all intents and purposes, mint, or "new in box," regardless of whether it has been handled or whatever. But for some people, what has actually been done to or with the knife is more important. For example, to some collectors, switching the clip position on a PM2, no matter if it leaves no trace, is enough to make the knife not "mint." Same for cutting a single piece of tissue paper with the edge.

Neither group described above is more or less correct in their use of the term "mint" or "new in box," it's just that they care about different things. Which goes back to my initial point about avoiding shorthand.

 

[Hickory n steel]

Cool topic, OP! Ignore the comments that are smarmy or down-playing.

I'd like to see standards adopted for describing knife conditions. I've never sold here, but I've bought a lot of knives on the Exchange and standards for condition would be nice. I see it something like this:

NIB: Knife has never been removed from box. Seller is first owner and has never handled the knife. Seals, if present, are intact and unbroken. A second (or third, etc) owner can't sell a NIB knife.
LNIB: Knife has been removed from box to verify condition as acceptable and returned to box. Seller is first owner and has never actually handled the knife. A second owner can't sell a LNIB knife.
Carried: Knife has been removed from box, opened and closed, fondled, clip-flipped, clipped to pocket or left out of box for a period of time. Seller is first owner and can verify non-use of the knife. A second owner can't sell a Carried knife. This is probably the typical condition of most "new" knives sold here.
Light User: Knife has been carried some and used for simple tasks such as cutting paper, threads, tape etc. Seller is first owner and can verify that all use of the knife has been by them, and has been lo impact. A second owner can't sell a light user.
User: Knife has been used in a normal, non-abusive fashion. Seller may or may not be first owner, but photographic condition of the knife can attest to level of wear and use.
Heavy User: Knife has been heavily used and shows obvious wear. Scales and blade may be scratched, blade may be dull or sharpened. Dings and rubs and clip wear are all to be expected. The knife is sold "as-is" with photographic condition validating the state of the knife.
Reconditioned: Knives that have had blade swaps, spa treatments, factory repair, etc regardless of apparent condition.
Custom Production/Modded: Production knives that have had aftermarket scales, acid washes, anodizing etc regardless of apparent condition.

That might be a little hard core, but I think those are all important points to include in the description of a knife offered for sale in the community. I'm not even touching on custom knives here, I've never owned one (yet )

I've bought a lot of modded production knives here, and most of the time I know who did the mods and roughly when, but that info is really very important (to me) to include in the sale offering of a modded production knife. It's part of the history of a knife, as well as a testimony to the crafts-persons who work on them. If I post a pic of a knife that's been made special by someone, it's nice to be able to give props where due.

Now, at the end of the day I've had nothing but positive experiences here as a buyer. I've done business with good, responsible people. At the end of the day, it might just boil down to whom you choose to buy from and sell too.

I'd say that just about sums it up 👍

 

[Quiet]

T, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I would say that your post definitely has a lot more impact if we're talking about Traditionals. Modern knives though, are a different story. Also, I will be politely candid when I say that I don't really care about a knife's history. I care whether or not the description of the knife is correct, and that any and all issues are disclosed. When I see the phrase "BNIB" or "LNIB" or even "NIB" on a knife in the Folders section (where I buy and sell), I discount those statements immediately because there is literally no way to tell between:

- A Spyderco PM2 that was purchased, box never even slid open, and placed carefully in a safe

and

- A Spyderco PM2 that was purchased, removed from the box and carried a few times, where it cut a few things, but no scratches or visible damage was accumulated, it was just put back in the slider box and put up on the Exchange

If someone was careful, there is just no way to tell. I mean, I suppose you could put the knife under a molecular microscope and see skin fragments that can't be seen with the naked eye, but that's about it. Modern knives tend to be very well finished, and made of durable materials. Someone might have used a knife every single day for months, and as long as he:

- stropped it correctly, and didn't make any mistakes when sharpening that marked up the blade on the sides somehow
- removed the clip, and then replaced it in the factory location
- didn't attempt to use the knife in any way other than to cut
- didn't bang the clip on a doorframe or anything

...then, you won't ever know. It's entirely feasible that there are people selling knives on the Exchange that they claim are like new, or "BNIB" when actually they carried it around for a short while. It geniunely doesn't bother me, as long as the knife shows up in fantastic shape.

I would also say that sure, there are a lot of people who buy knives "sight unseen" in today's knife world. I'm one of 'em, because I live in an absolute knife-shop deadzone. I can't go many places and see and hold knives from reputable manufacturers. Well, there's an Army/Navy store who has all of Spyderco's lineup, but that's it. Like Benchmade, Emerson, ZT, or whatever else? You're outta luck. Oh, and I hope you like paying MSRP (I don't). Otherwise, you have to wait until a gun show comes through, with even worse prices. Thanks, I'll pass. I purchase knives mainly through the vendors here. It just is what it is, The internet is going to be where most people get most of their knives. And unfortunately, no, there's not much chance that you'll discover any sort of story behind the knife.

I think that it also goes to the discussion of what sort of collector you are. I'm rapidly becoming less of a collector, and more of a user. I have sold quite a few knives that just weren't used, and weren't ever going to be used. It's easy to forget sometimes that unless you are absolutely abusing a knife, ANY modern pocket-knife made of good, decent modern materials is going to outlast the person carrying it. I've started to keep that in mind.

 

[NJBillK]

I would like to offer one quick correction to Hacks observations,
NIB and LNIB can definitely be for however many owners it lasts.
Example:
If I buy a knife direct from a vendor with the sole intent of flipping it and don't open the package and sell it as NIB, any number of following owners can either A: do the same or B: open to inspect and not fondle or play with, and still pass it along as NIB (first scenario) or even LNIB (second scenario).

There are Very few times where a NIB knife can be claimed, did you open it to inspect it (LNIB), did you just receive the box and not even break the seal on it and list it for sale (NIB)?
--------
I have bought, sold, and traded knives in and out. Some sellers were honest, some were not. I have taken note of those that were not and left according feedbacks if it was grievous enough to warrant a public notification, or left a message stating that I would prefer to not sully a reputation over a "misinterpretation" of a term, or something that was willfully left out (since it wouldn't have hindered my purchase).

 

[T. Erdelyi]

There were a few threads a while back about kit knives bein' sold as custom knives, some kit assemblers would put their initials on the inside of the liner or scale outta sight but as a mark in case it was sold and misrepresented. I remember Darrel Ralph who owns one of the kit knife companies was considerin' a stamp that reflected a kit origin but allowed the customizer to add his own flourish to the knife and personalize it.

 

[Hackenslash]

I would like to offer one quick correction to Hacks observations,
NIB and LNIB can definitely be for however many owners it lasts.
Example:
If I buy a knife direct from a vendor with the sole intent of flipping it and don't open the package and sell it as NIB, any number of following owners can either A: do the same or B: open to inspect and not fondle or play with, and still pass it along as NIB (first scenario) or even LNIB (second scenario).

There are Very few times where a NIB knife can be claimed, did you open it to inspect it (LNIB), did you just receive the box and not even break the seal on it and list it for sale (NIB)?
--------
I have bought, sold, and traded knives in and out. Some sellers were honest, some were not. I have taken note of those that were not and left according feedbacks if it was grievous enough to warrant a public notification, or left a message stating that I would prefer to not sully a reputation over a "misinterpretation" of a term, or something that was willfully left out (since it wouldn't have hindered my purchase).

After I posted my breakdown, I almost went back and amended it for owners who buy with the intention to sell or flip. That is a valid way the NIB or LNIB designation can last through owners down the line.

I get a kick out of the sale listings that read like:

Hey, check out my LNIB BM 940! Hardly ever used and in pristine condition! After I got it back from Benchmade service to replace a broken blade, I really disliked the naked blade so I sent it out to be acid washed and re-profiled. Then I added aftermarket G10 scales to get a better grip. Specially tapped for tip-down, left hand carry! Get this LNIB Beauty while you can! I don't have the BM box or baggy and the original pocket clip was badly bent in the boating accident but this great knife has never been used...

 

[155440]

These issues would be solved if people just explained themselves rather than using shorthand. It's not hard to give enough specifics to answer all questions about a knife.

I'll second this. It's very frustrating that a lot of sellers want to just put up a knife and have the buyer do everything, from guessing the condition of the knife to paying the paypal fees with extra percentages thrown on. :barf: (If you're going to be a tool and make the buyer calculate and pay your fees, at least charge the accurate amount, 2.9% + 0.30 USD)

In response to the original post, I think that the history matters, but not specifics. I like knowing that a couple of my knives, gifted to me from generous members here, saw decent use before being thrown into my pocket. At the end of the day, a knife is a tool, and its cool owning something that someone else got to enjoy. I've been carrying one such knife, a Buck 503 that was made five years before I was born. Every ding on the bolster or scratch on the blade is part of it's history and I'm happy I get to add to that.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

I agree that correct and accurate descriptions are important especially with clear pics and I agree that history is important more so with traditional s which may be upwards of 100+ years old but with the professional level modders we have who make custom scales for the mini Grips and PM2s just to name a few, new standoffs and spacers, people pimp out new knives so much that without a history it becomes more difficult to tell what's stock and what's not, almost like buyin' a gun. It may look like any other 1911 .45 cal till you look inside and you can't necessarily tell by lookin' and that's where history comes into play even with new knives.

Those PM2s 50 years from now that have been pimped out might be worth more if the history of who made what changes isn't lost. NIB when spendinin' north 0r $500 better mean NIB.

 

[Sonnydaze]

These issues would be solved if people just explained themselves rather than using shorthand. It's not hard to give enough specifics to answer all questions about a knife.

Brancron makes sense. A seller can say "I bought it from a dealer last week, took it out for pics and put it back in the box." Or..."I bought this from another guy who said he never carried it. Looks unused to me..." Or..."shows sign of light use with snail-trails, scratch on the blade...see pics."
LOTS of pics really can tell a good story.
No matter how many pics or how good the explanation...I try to sell all of my knives with a guarantee. If this is NOT as I've advertised, please return it and I'll refund ALL of your money as well as the return shipping.... That has seemed to work very well for me.
As has been mentioned or inferred in previous posts, so much of this boils down to personal ethics...which can be a tenuous handle to grab onto, as it means everything to some folks, and absolutely nothing to others. Part of the game, I suppose.

 

[JR88FAN]

If you're paranoid about whether a knife for sale is actually in the condition that it is listed as then just buy only brand new knives from retailers. Problem solved. As to your other rant about technology taking away the good old days, don't use the Internet then. Find a porch to sit on with your friends to talk/swap knives. Other problem solved.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Great advise, problem is a lot of knives that are no longer available (discontinued/LE's) are still out there from individuals in various condition's, many, especially LE's, are usually kept whatever "Mint" or "NIB" means.

As for the rest of your post, Maybe read the OP again....

 

[Quiet]

I agree that correct and accurate descriptions are important especially with clear pics and I agree that history is important more so with traditional s which may be upwards of 100+ years old but with the professional level modders we have who make custom scales for the mini Grips and PM2s just to name a few, new standoffs and spacers, people pimp out new knives so much that without a history it becomes more difficult to tell what's stock and what's not, almost like buyin' a gun. It may look like any other 1911 .45 cal till you look inside and you can't necessarily tell by lookin' and that's where history comes into play even with new knives.

Those PM2s 50 years from now that have been pimped out might be worth more if the history of who made what changes isn't lost. NIB when spendinin' north 0r $500 better mean NIB.

Well, who knows? I see a difference once again between traditionals and modern folders. Take for instance, a standard garden variety PM2 with S30 steel. There were a ton of those made, so I wouldn't expect much variation overall, or for there to be a huge value increase on those. Now, compare that with a GEC/Northwoods run where the natural scales can command significantly higher prices due to a variety of factors: coloration, the condition of the bone/ivory, and so on. I would think those would be factors that would result in a value increase over time, no?

 

[JR88FAN]

I agree that correct and accurate descriptions are important especially with clear pics and I agree that history is important more so with traditional s which may be upwards of 100+ years old but with the professional level modders we have who make custom scales for the mini Grips and PM2s just to name a few, new standoffs and spacers, people pimp out new knives so much that without a history it becomes more difficult to tell what's stock and what's not, almost like buyin' a gun. It may look like any other 1911 .45 cal till you look inside and you can't necessarily tell by lookin' and that's where history comes into play even with new knives.

Those PM2s 50 years from now that have been pimped out might be worth more if the history of who made what changes isn't lost. NIB when spendinin' north 0r $500 better mean NIB.

My humble theory:

It's up to us (as a buyer) to ask all the right questions, and to ask for all the pictures we need to make an informed decision about the condition of a knife.

I will never leave that to a seller and his 4 lines of text and 2 sh!t pictures!

I think we are in such a rush sometimes to buy something, that we don't think about all the things we really want to know about the item....this is the internet, everything is NIB until you get it.....

Mr. Erdelyi, how many Spyderco Hungarian Folders do you own?! (Off topic)

 

[NJBillK]

I get a kick out of the sale listings that read like:

Hey, check out my LNIB BM 940! Hardly ever used and in pristine condition! After I got it back from Benchmade service to replace a broken blade, I really disliked the naked blade so I sent it out to be acid washed and re-profiled. Then I added aftermarket G10 scales to get a better grip. Specially tapped for tip-down, left hand carry! Get this LNIB Beauty while you can! I don't have the BM box or baggy and the original pocket clip was badly bent in the boating accident but this great knife has never been used...

Honestly, I would LOVE if Every ad had this amount of detail.
I can tell for myself that "LNIB" or any other chosen nomenclature stated would be accurate or not, if given that amount of history on a knife.

Give me information, not some generic term that means one thing that you and another to every other person on this planet.
Did you cut one piece of paper, or one mile worth of Glassboard, carpet, shingles, drywall and cement board.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

...

Mr. Erdelyi, how many Spyderco Hungarian Folders do you own?! (Off topic)

Sadly none yet, I see the counterfeits on line and although tempted I wouldn't buy one so I'll have to wait for a used accurately described one for a good price or wait for someone to give me one. I keep droppin' hints to my relatives back home to keep their eyes open for one for me.