Mint New in Box

[JR88FAN]

Sadly none yet, I see the counterfeits on line and although tempted I wouldn't buy one so I'll have to wait for a used accurately described one for a good price or wait for someone to give me one. I keep droppin' hints to my relatives back home to keep their eyes open for one for me.

Man, I was gonna guess ALL of them!

A big disappointment in my opinion, but I shall let this thread get back on track....!

 

[T. Erdelyi]

One or two term descriptions are too subjective and yes Buyer Beware, I feel the more info and the more accurate/descriptive the wording with clear pics are the way to go. But ultimately it's buyers responsibility to seek out all the needed info to make an educated purchase or trade.

Some time ago I started an article on how to describe a knife for sale and how to take clear pics with even a cell phone. I've always felt a primer on how to list and sell a knife for trade.

 

[unklfranco]

Good discussion topic. Nearly EVERY single trade I've done the exchange resulted in misrepresentation of condition or fake. (the other party) Ex. 1- Faded benchmade logo is a sign of reconditioning. The trader sanded the whole knife down to hide use scratches and passed off as carried but like new.#2- I lost one that was sent back to factory for service. They kept it because it was fake. The real company gave me a discount on a replacement to keep me as a customer. #3- A fake PM2. That one hurt but a lesson learned. My loupe revealed the other minor examples. Now I only buy direct from custom makers, authorized dealers, my local guy or someone I know. Sign of the times I guess. It's easy to rip someone off on the internet, it doesn't make it right. Some people just can't resist. Shrug. They just kill the secondary market, nice job. I guess that's one way to increase new production.

 

[BilboBaggins]

I have had nothing but positive experiences buying from the forum. Everyone I've dealt with has been honest and transparent in their dealings with me. All that being said, it would be nice to have agreed upon condition definitions that applied to all sales/trades. People here want different things from their knife purchases and while I'm much less likely to nitpick a knife to death (since I'm buying to use it) I understand others feel differently, particularly as prices go up and there is more at "stake".

It's interesting to see how different sellers approach the process. From the aforementioned crappy cell phone pic on a $500 knife for sale to the guy pointing out "flaws" with super high res photos that I can barely see on a $60 knife. I certainly appreciate those who go the distance in their listings.

 

[mtangent]

How do you know what's in the box if you don't open it?
How many people opened it in the shop, before it was sold to you over the internet.

Example: You are the 3rd owner of a NIB PM2. neither you nor the previous owners ever opened the box. The guy you sell it to complains the box contained an Endura 3 in VG10.

If you don't open the box, you are not buying & selling knives, you are buying & selling boxes. You should be advertising "unopened box" for sale.

 

[NJBillK]

But still would the knife not be (safely) presumed as new?
If the knife is not in fact "New" then that would be for the vendor/dealer to handle since it is their original packaging? Especially since you are selling what is what's supposed to be inside the box.

I know this is a whole Schrodinger's cat type of thing, so wouldn't it truly be labeled, "Assumed NIB model xxxx, never opened original packaging to be sure, that surprise is for you to find out."?


Since I didn't open it, and it came straight from a vendor, I would label it as NIB. Especially considering the last person (perceived) to touch the knife was said companies QC reps.

 

[mtangent]

But still would the knife not be (safely) presumed as new?
If the knife is not in fact "New" then that would be for the vendor/dealer to handle since it is their original packaging? Especially since you are selling what is what's supposed to be inside the box.

I know this is a whole Schrodinger's cat type of thing, so wouldn't it truly be labeled, "Assumed NIB model xxxx, never opened original packaging to be sure, that surprise is for you to find out."?


Since I didn't open it, and it came straight from a vendor, I would label it as Assumed NIB. Especially considering the last person (perceived) to touch the knife was said companies QC reps.

Exactly.
also, when talking about collectables, after multiple owners, you can't assume the retailer or manufacturer are even still around. The buyer is on his own. Even if they are still around, after five or ten years, I doubt there is a come-back. The buyer is on his own. He bought a box, & made assumptions.

 

[Hackenslash]

How do you know what's in the box if you don't open it?
How many people opened it in the shop, before it was sold to you over the internet.

Example: You are the 3rd owner of a NIB PM2. neither you nor the previous owners ever opened the box. The guy you sell it to complains the box contained an Endura 3 in VG10.

If you don't open the box, you are not buying & selling knives, you are buying & selling boxes. You should be advertising "unopened box" for sale.

If it's a previously owned and handled knife, it's not NIB unless specifically bought to resell. Apply the same standard you would for electronics or computers to knives. Think "open box sale"...

 

[NJBillK]

If a box factory sealed, and kept as such, given the sellers reputation to support such claim, I would have no qualms making such a purchase.
If the knife that I did receive was BNIB and the packaging was indeed untouched but I had a lemon, well, that would be my luck...
But not much other than an unfortunate roll of the dice. I could not be honest myself if I faulted an honest seller for that. He had no idea, how could I blame him?

 

[mtangent]

If a box factory sealed, and kept as such, given the sellers reputation to support such claim, I would have no qualms making such a purchase.
If the knife that I did receive was BNIB and the packaging was indeed untouched but I had a lemon, well, that would be my luck...
But not much other than an unfortunate roll of the dice. I could not be honest myself if I faulted an honest seller for that. He had no idea, how could I blame him?

Yes. But I am trying to make a different point. When all is new & fresh, a buyer can open a box, then take it back to the shop & say "this box contains the wrong knife."
That person bought a knife, & he cares about the knife. Perhaps he cares about the box, but maybe not.

But say he didn't open the box. He put it in his knife safe.
Ten years later he sells it, NIB, unopened. The second owner does not open the box, & sells it umpteen years later, NIB.
So it continues.

My contention is, that at some point, the buyers are not buying knives, since nobody living has seen the knife. The box contains something, but is it the right knife? Is it even a knife. Only the box is verifiable. They are buying boxes, keeping the boxes undamaged in a box safe. No maintenance of the knife, it may deteriorate, unless it is a nylon toy knife. Who cares, the box is in great condition, & unopened.

So, from a collector's point of view, I would rather the box be opened, the knife verified to be the correct model, & oiled regularly.
NIB means NB.

 

[powernoodle]

So what constitutes a "NIB" knife?

It means brand new and never out of the box. Anything less than that is not new.

I'm a little hard core on this one. If a guy takes the knife out of the box, flicks it a few times, takes a pic for eBay, and puts it back in the box, its not NIB. Once someone's greasy little fingers have been all over it, especially after they just stuck their hand down their pants for 20 minutes, its not "new". Its "like new". But its not new. When you drive a car away from the dealership and fart in it, its no longer new. When I take someone's sister down to the river and drive her home an hour later, she's no longer new. And when you get your greasy fingerprints and DNA all over a knife, its no longer new either. New is new. Anything less than new is not new.

I have spoken.

 

[Hackenslash]

It means brand new and never out of the box. Anything less than that is not new.

I'm a little hard core on this one. If a guy takes the knife out of the box, flicks it a few times, takes a pic for eBay, and puts it back in the box, its not NIB. Once someone's greasy little fingers have been all over it, especially after they just stuck their hand down their pants for 20 minutes, its not "new". Its "like new". But its not new. When you drive a car away from the dealership and fart in it, its no longer new. When I take someone's sister down to the river and drive her home an hour later, she's no longer new. And when you get your greasy fingerprints and DNA all over a knife, its no longer new either. New is new. Anything less than new is not new.

I have spoken.

This kinda settles it...

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Interesting point, this now becomes an issue with newer knives. Most knives before the 50s weren't boxed were they? Boxes became valuable and in some instances more than the contents because of how fragile these vehicles of merchandising artwork actually are. Even the toughest of boxes is subject to he ravages of time and poor storage eventually becoming worthless unless preserved perfectly and like you said, you're really collectin' boxes at that point.

What do you call a LNIB box or is there no such thing since as soon as the contents are removed the New Box is no longer new?

The problem becomes one of trust when you can't actually see the knife. You're putting your trust in someone to be accurately describing the knife and honest enough that if you disagree with his description will accept the return and refund your money.

Does the problem come about when tryin' to define these terms to the satisfaction of all involved? Does the terminology need to be more accurate or just more broadly acceptable. The majority defines the condition not the majority conforms to the description.

It's a simple term, New in box means no one has opened or removed it from it's box. People buy things sight unseen all the time and if they're not happy that the description doesn't match the actual object or description the return it. If it's a limited model regardless if it's a knife or anything else you then have to decide if your willing to accept it as is due to the rarity or lack of availability of another example. Now that you chose to accept it, you've opened it, saw it was not as described but kept it anyway sometime passes and you decide to sell it, how do you list it? Are you obligated to inform the potential buyers that in your subjective opinion the knife was not as described or do you just flip it as NIB with the caveat that you only opened it to look at it or add your opinion to the description?

People trade, buy and sell millions of knives on the internet without ever inspecting the knife they get, a lot also when they get a knife just put it into a safe and sell it later without ever removing it from the box and they sell it as NIB. If the end user receives the knife and it's not in their opinion (remember it's only subjective) who's responsible for the end user's satisfaction? What if the knife came from the factory and no one ever opened it and it just kept gettin' resold as NIB, is it the last person's responsibility to accept the condition and consider it a lesson learned?

Descriptions such as NIB seem to be more a concern of modern knives made in the last 50 years, the concerns and descriptions for vintage knives seems to be more akin to coins and guns than anything else but there has to be some accurate descriptors so we're all on he same page when we buy knives sight unseen, even with pics it's easy to deceive.

Someone said it a few posts back and I'm paraphrasing here, it's the responsibility of the buyer to ensure they are satisfied with the accuracy of the description before buying and if not ask for pics or more info.

 

[NJBillK]

On the contrary, NIB means it is only new in the box while it resides in said box. I would even include the open in of the box to "inspect" as long as it is not removed and fondled or handled.
(At that point it becomes LNIB for my set of standards.)
Considering the sale consists of a sealed box that is sold as a unit with a supposed knife inside, that is not for the 3rd party to do anything other than speculate on. Especially if they are not interested in bidding on or purchasing said "box with supposed knife therein".

While the new owner may be content with a new and shiny box with a pile of rust and two slabs of G10 in it, that is what they signed up for. At least until they decide to open said box and inspect the knife (in the process removing and opening the knife a time or two), which would make this knife now LNIB as stated earlier.

 

[mtangent]

On the contrary, NIB means it is only new in the box while it resides in said box. I would even include the open in of the box to "inspect" as long as it is not removed and fondled or handled.
(At that point it becomes LNIB for my set of standards.)
Considering the sale consists of a sealed box that is sold as a unit with a supposed knife inside, that is not for the 3rd party to do anything other than speculate on. Especially if they are not interested in bidding on or purchasing said "box with supposed knife therein".

While the new owner may be content with a new and shiny box with a pile of rust and two slabs of G10 in it, that is what they signed up for. At least until they decide to open said box and inspect the knife (in the process removing and opening the knife a time or two), which would make this knife now LNIB as stated earlier.

Yes, that's the point I'm making.
With that definition of NIB, the unopened box is the commodity, contents are secondary. I accept that the dream/concept/assumption of the contents in a box can bring satisfaction for some. The Schrade clampacks excel in this environment, over cardboard boxes.

Personally, as a collector of old knives, I like it opened, photographed, described. Stuff the box.
Others are different, obviously.

After 50 years, the designation LNIB may be worth more than NIB.

 

[NJBillK]

After 50 years, the designation LNIB may be worth more than NIB.

Only if you are the buyer of the box (knife too, I suppose).


Though one would have to agree that the box would lose all common perceived value if someone sold the box as "May contain an unused knife.".

 

[mtangent]

Though one would have to agree that the box would lose all common perceived value if someone sold the box as "May contain an unused knife.".

But that is exactly what the proposed definition of NIB means. The contents are unverified by any party to the transaction. The NIB market runs on hopes & assumptions.

 

[NJBillK]

On the contrary, NIB means it is only new in the box while it resides in said box. I would even include the opening of the box to "inspect" as long as it is not removed and fondled or handled.
(At that point it becomes LNIB for my set of standards.)

this was already covered.

Bold typeface to show grammatical correction.

 

[colubrid]

I could care less about box, papers and such. I also don't care if a knife is NIB. Only thing I care about is if the knife is centered. People who post pictures of the knife that leave that part out is my gripe.


If a knife has a few scratches or bumps I don't care as much as if the knife is not centered. New knives do not gurantee that. Expensive knives in the $200. plus range still don't have centered blades. I would rather have a scratch or dent or a sharpened blade than an uncentered , leaning blade. If it is perfectly centered I will want it.

 

[Sirryacus]

The people who say a knife should never be opened or handled for it to be considered new in their "eyes" have no right to complain if the factory accidentally scuffed it up or put the wrong knife in the box right? Fair is fair. That is my problem with selling sealed boxes, some bozo decides to open it and decides they don't like what they see inside and now I'm stuck with something I can't again resell for the same amount of money.