Mirror polishing M390?

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Dec 20, 2005
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Has anyone here tried to mirror polish M390?

I made a knife and I'm having a heck of a time trying to get rid of all the scratches.

Took the whole blade to a 15 micron finish, and the scratches just want to stay. The knife was heat treated and tested at HRC 61. (I mirror polished CPM S35VN @ HRC 59 and never had so much difficultly as I'm having now with M390).

Spent over two hours last night on the buffer trying to get rid of the 15 micron scratches. Even tried hand sanding at P1200 and buffing, no effect on the scratches.

I have a feeling M390 at HRC 61 will take an edge and hold it! :eek:

Any recommendations would be appreciated! Thanks! :thumbup:
 
One of the problems with S30V was that the high V content caused polishing problems - vanadium carbide is the reason. They reduced that problem with lower V content of S35VN. M390 has a high V content
along with some W and Mo.Find customers like me who hate shiney stuff !!
 
I'm just sending blades ofd M390 away for heat treat. I have not been polishing previous stainless blades. These, I may have bto stay with the hand finishing. Some of the very best information on metal testing indicates it rates at the top for edge holding. Frank
 
Yeah mete is right, the vanadium carbide are the issue. :) you could try diamond lapping film to 1-3 microns, that should do it. keep us posted!
 
Looks like I am a little late to the party... But just in case the OP is still around and still trying to put that magic mirror finish on the M390 to this day:

Has anyone here tried to mirror polish M390?

I made a knife and I'm having a heck of a time trying to get rid of all the scratches.

Took the whole blade to a 15 micron finish, and the scratches just want to stay. ... Spent over two hours last night on the buffer trying to get rid of the 15 micron scratches. Even tried hand sanding at P1200 and buffing, no effect on the scratches.

The problem you are experiencing sounds like a case of cross-contamination. It is very important to wash and rinse off the blade before progressing to the next grit stage. If you are using oil-based diamond paste, then wash with a generous amount of soap and rinse off thoroughly in running warm water for at least two minutes. Particulates leftover from the previous stage can wreak havoc on your attempts at mirror-finish. Large-sized particulates trapped in oil-residue from the previous stage will keep making those big scratches, completely nullifying all of your attempts at mirror-polish.

I ordered some polishing equipment which should be arriving in about ten days. My very first project as a knife collector will be to mirror-polish my M390 knife. I plan to take it all the way down to 0.25 micron range with diamond paste.
 
Well since this is back open:

Kiku, While diamond polishing will help, you have to know the size of the carbides you have in the matrix. If they are larger than the grit size you will be wasting your time. .25 micron is pretty small. Larrin would know the exact sizes, but many carbides are much larger than 250 nm. Some carbides can be as large as 50,000 nm (50 microns). Going beyond 14,000 grit/1 micron is not going to produce more polish in a high vanadium steel.

More important than the grit size is the hardness and flatness of the applicator. Using a rag or paper towel will not make the surface flat. Use a hard flat backing to carry your polish once you pass 400 grit/40 microns. A piece of hard phenolic works well with diamond paste. Paper micarta is good. (TIP: use different color micarta for each grit)
 
Hi, Stacy. Thanks for the input. I'm new here and new to knives.

I have ground & polished metals before, but those were relatively soft metals (thermocycled SAC alloys) for electron microscopy.
But I have never ground/polished knives (not counting kitchen knives). Unlike SAC alloys, knives, particularly those of exotic high-end stainless steels, such as M390, have a high content of carbides or so I read.

I dug around for a comprehensive source of info on polishing M390 or any other metals that are high in vanadium carbide content, but I haven't been able to find any. There are some scant pieces of information spread here and there, but overall, there are still many missing pieces of the puzzle to give anyone who has yet to polish a knife a reasonably complete picture of how to go about bringing that mirror-finish to M390 surface.

So below is an impromptu general process of how I plan to go about my very first project. If you find any errors, please feel free to correct me.

Below is a micrograph of Bohler M390 annealed at 2140°F (from knifesteelnerds website):

1000X-M390.jpg


Most of the microstructures shown in the photo above appear to be greater than 1 micron. I am going to hazard a guess that most of those white-silvery intermetallics are vanadium carbides. Vanadium carbides have approx. 89 HRC, not something that can be easily ground down using sandpapers - attempting to do so will probably result in an uneven surface contour where the peaks are those of unground carbides and the valleys are those of softer metals. Such an uneven surface contour can cause incident light to scatter off in all directions, thus giving off that characteristic cloudy sheen as reported by several members here who tried to polish M390.

I am going to guess that a truly mirror-like surface requires an average height difference between the peaks and valleys to be less than the shortest wavelength in the visible spectrum. In other words, I need a flat surface for that mirror-finish. Flatter the surface, better the mirror-finish.

To render the surface flat or flatter, I need to grind down those carbides somehow. I need to grind them so that the average height difference between the peaks and valleys is less than 0.400 microns, the shortest wavelength in the visible spectrum. What will I use to achieve this level of flatness? Sandpapers can't do it. I think diamond paste is the only viable option here.

Making an educated guess, I approximate the width of a very fine scratch mark visible to the naked eye is about 10 microns. The corresponding grit size to 10 microns is approximately 1500. So I plan on starting with 1500-grit diamond paste on my M390 knife surface which is reasonably flat and shiny (for a stone-wash finish).

Using a wool-felt polishing wheel mounted to a Dremel at 5000 rpm (the lowest possible setting), I will start polishing in a series of pulses. This is to minimize heat build-up. The material removal rate is initially expected to be high on the lower grits, thus a lot of heat is expected. From here, it's a simple matter of gradual grit progression all the way down to 0.25 microns for that true mirror-finish. Each grit size compound will have its own dedicated polishing wheel to minimize cross-contamination. Once I reach sub-micron grit size, I will switch to muslin wheels to bring about that final shine.
 
Using a wool/felt wheel will polish out the softer metal in the matrix leaving the harder carbides higher and make what we call an orange peel surface. The paste carrier must be a hard material to polish high hardness carbides in a softer matrix to any degree of flatness. Also, a Dremel won't do it. It will create a rippled surface. The SFM is too low. You want a 1" yo 2" wide by 10" or 12" diameter extra hard felt wheel at a minimum.
 
If a dremel won't do it, then what specific tool would recommend that doesn't require a huge power tool?

You mentioned 10-12" diameter extra hard felt wheel at a minimum. What specific brand/item would you recommend?
And would polishing an M390 knife (small blade) by hand be a practical weekend project?
 
Your best option would be to try and do it by hand with a hard felt block or a piece of paper micarta. I fear it will be a slow process to get to a mirror finish.

The power equipment to buff blades with hard felt wheels and diamond compound is not cheap and can be very dangerous to use.
 
I still need you to be more specific. How about these fine diamonds embedded in resin?

sY86Md3.png

The pads above are made for hand polishing. Not sure whether they are for wet or dry polishing. I am going to guess the latter.


or this:

c4vw9Z4.png

The higher grits are for wet-polishing only. I suppose I could dip both the knife and these pads in a shallow pan of water. Clearly these pads were meant for use with a rotary power tool. And I don't think my poor little dremel is cut out for this task:

zQ3A3jm.png


So please tell me which of those two pads would be suitable for either the tiny dremel or by hand.
I get the feeling that the dremel shown above won't be able to generate sufficient torque and power to handle 4" disk pads.
 
An idea just struck me... What if I were to use ... diamond lapping films??

I will need to get several glass plates and glue a lapping film to each plate. Glass should be hard enough to provide me with the much-needed "hard flat backing" that Stacy spoke of in an earlier post while the diamond particles on the film abrade away carbides. This should effectively minimize the difference in height between the peaks and valleys in M390 until all of the carbides have worn down to the same height as the softer metals in the valleys.

In essence, I will be polishing my knife free-hand style just like how some people grind/polish their knives on traditional flat stones, only I'll be doing so on glass plates covered with lapping films instead.

Am I on the right track?
 
The items for stone polishing probably wouldn't work. Small rotary tools have some muses in kni9femaking, but they aren't for mirror polishing larger flat surfaces.

Lapping film and a glass or marble backing plate would be a better choice. It will still be a big task, but with patience and determination, you will slowly lap the surfaces flat and smooth.

I'm going to drop out of this thread and let you try some of your ideas so you can learn what works and what doesn't. Good luck mon your project.
 
It can be done... Here's an m390 blank I'm making. I had them lapped by a professional company though.

i-z9cbs2z-X4.jpg


But I've tried all sorts of diamond lapping film (and alox film) and they all seem to have some sort of cross contamination in the film itself below about 2 micron.
 
What happens in most polishing with fine compounds is "balling" or "clumping". The grit gets stuck together in the swarf, rolls up in a ball, and simulates a much larger grit. Sufficient lubrication and some method for the swarf being carried away (usually a slow water flow, dunking, or a drip can) helps avoid this.

We probably have all done this hand sanding with fine sandpaper that we didn't dunk in the rinse tub often enough and suddenly the are coarse grit scratches on our almost finished blade.

Sanding back-and-forth makes this worse
as it forces the grit and swarf to reverse and ball up faster. Sanding in one direction only, lifting the paper, dipping it in the water tub (change for each grit), and returning to the start place for the next stroke will almost eliminate balling/clumping.
 
Would it make a difference whether I use a FLOAT Glass vs TEMPERED Glass for the polishing platform?
The price difference between the two isn't all that significant but the reason for using a slab of glass is for its hardness, is it not?
If so, then wouldn't a slab of granite also work as well?

I also looked at the pricing of those 3M diamond lapping films. Sheesh. Doesn't look like they sell them in smaller quantities, either.

Sometimes I wonder what I am really getting myself into.
I also know that I won't be truly satisfied until I polish my knife to a mirror-finish.
 
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