Mission - 12" A2 MPK

Cliff Stamp · Jul 12, 1999

Here are some comments on the MPK from Mission :

http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/mission_mpk.html

Not my knife (Will's) so I couldn't really beat on it, but it looks like a solid performer. My only real concern would be how the relatively soft edge would hold up. I will probably get around to a quantitative description of some of the comparasions later on.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12 July 1999).]

RUDY · Jul 12, 1999

Very good review as usual Mr. Stamp. I can understand your soncern about the softness of the edge but to me it wouln't be that big of deal because of the uses I would have for such a blade. I would mainly use it for lighter chopping in which I didn't need a bigger blade such as my AK and so I doubt I would use the blade for very extended periods of time in which the edge would have the chance of impacting severly. I would also probably use such a blade for heavier slicing and maybe splittling smaller logs for kindling etc.

anyways thanks and take care
collin

bald1 · Jul 12, 1999

Cliff,

As always a very informative review. My thanks to Will for loaning you the knife.

With my hands being pretty rough I still find the handle on the MPK to provide a secure grip even when wet. And I still give it the nod over the MD pATAK2 I experienced as the MPK affords more grip adjustment which I prefer.

My smaller 10" MPK-A2 is not designed as a chopper but rather an all purpose field knife. It excells at slicing and can chop but I leave those duties to my HI 15" Ang Khola or an old Becker Tool and Knife Brute with it's 9.5" blade. I haven't noticed any edge rolling or deformation yet so it is possible that the heat treat may have been a tad harder on my knife or I may not have pushed it to that point yet.

I still am highly pleased with my knife and will continue to recommend it to anyone looking for a medium length, stout, heavy duty field knife!

-=[Bob]=-

Will Kwan · Jul 12, 1999

Cliff,

I am glad to see some similarities in the reviews.

To draw my MD I usually tug on the handle and push on the kydex retainer with my thumb. The knife comes out silently without the audiable snap and snick. Mission also uses different kydex thicknesses in their sheath.

The knife did seem to dull rather fast. Which in my case was a good thing. I would have cut myself when the edge dragged over my hand at the end of my test. I guess Mission wants to play it safe and sell a knife that scrifices edge retention but is less likely to break.

Mission includes a leg strap witht the MPKS which I did not send. However, I did include lots of paracord in the lanyard. It was very difficult to get into the hole so I attached all that I had to the knife. Feel, free to remove it if it gets in the way. I chopped one lanyard off my MD.

I did not encounter indentation while chopping hard wood. This may have been due to the thick initial edge. I thinned down the left side considerably so that the knife could be sharpened. You also mentioned they were quite small (1/64) and I may have just missed them.

Notice anymore wear on the blade finish? I am curious if the finish wears faster after it starts wearing.

Looking forward to what else you do with the MPKS.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will Kwan (edited 12 July 1999).]

Cliff Stamp · Jul 13, 1999

Collin, the impacting was only seen on harder woods and yes as you noted it would not be a concern for any slicing work.

Bob :

And I still give it the nod over the MD pATAK2 I experienced as the MPK affords more grip adjustment which I prefer.

Definately. The MPK grip is just as comfortable with spine or edge facing and can even be used sideways for chisel type work. The handle design is a definate plus, has Mission made any comments about its durability say compared to G10?

As for slicing work, yeah, I strongly prefer a neutral or even handle heavy blade for that, and the MPK does well in that area and I would prefer it over the CS. Mission is supposed to be coming out with a 15" version soon and that blade would probably be a very strong chopper easily in the Trailmaster class.

Will :

I guess Mission wants to play it safe and sell a knife that scrifices edge retention but is less likely to break.

This I think is inline with what Rick has stated. I would prefer a slightly harder edge but only if it wouldn't reduce the durability to a critical level. Since they had the input of Busse in the design I would bet that the temper they chose was a sensible one suited to the steel. I think by the way that its rather close to what Reeve uses and he has commented that he leaves his A2 "soft" for similar reasons. Does anyone have a Project and would care to comment? R. J. Martin does use A2 though and he goes much harder. Anyone have one of his knives?

I did not encounter indentation while chopping hard wood. This may have been due to the thick initial edge. I thinned down the left side considerably so that the knife could be sharpened. You also mentioned they were quite small (1/64) and I may have just missed them.

They were very small and were only readily noticed by running my fingers lightly across the edge to check for deformations and of course by tilting the blade to get the light reflections. If you want I can leave the blade in its worked condition when I am finished with it so you can see what I am describing, or of course I can sharpen it, whatever you want.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 13 July 1999).]

bald1 · Jul 13, 1999

Cliff,

I haven't heard anything specific from Rick or John about the handle vis-a-vis G-10 but given its composition my feeling is that it will be extremely durable bettering G-10.

With Will's comments about having thinned his edge before you got his knife, I think we've resolved the issue of edge deformation. As delivered I don't think there will be any such problem. As far as edge retention, mine falls within expectations compared to other A2 blades. I wouldn't classify it as poor at all. It actually seems to do pretty well and does touch up quickly. I must admit though that I'm probably becoming somewhat jaded and conscious of this I may tend to cut regular blade steels some slack. What am I talking about? Simply being flat out spoiled by Talonite. Absolutely nothing I've experienced comes close to its edge retention. I don't mean to seem to turn all my posts to cobalt alloy, but to be fair I need to frame my point of reference.

------------------
-=[Bob]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

missionknives · Jul 13, 1999

Greetings,
Thanks for the great feedback. A manufacturer can test a knife to death, but nothing compares to real-life testing in the field.

Handle Comments: I guess part of what you are looking for are at this post... http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000518.html

But, more specifically, durability vs G10. The EOD team based out of the now closed ElToro Marine Base used an MPK to pound 5 boxes of 8D penny nails into a 2x4 using the butt of the handle. I admit, there were 2 small scratches on the handle butt when they were done. For those interested, Homer Brett has the knife.

We first started experimenting with Hytrel based on extensive meetings with DuPont. We were originally thinking glass filled ST801, but DuPont said that Hytrel would make a better fit. We also performed extensive testing on Kevlar loading including length of the Kevlar thread. DuPont helped considerably by supplying 6 x 50 pound bags of different Durometer Hytrel along with different lengths of Kevlar thread. It was left up to us to compound the mixture to the exact percentages we wanted. Graphs were completed showing strengths of the handle material (along the Y-axis) and ever increasing % of Kevlar (along the X-axis). When we achieved the "top-of-the-curve" we knew we had a material that was going to be hard to beat. During this testing, we heard that the Navy was starting to have trouble with some of the MD knives - on a couple of their knives, the handles fell off. This further convinced us that Insert Injection Molding was the ONLY way to go. I believe that the material and compound we have chosen is every bit as durable as G10, plus, it feels "warm" in the hand. You will have to pick up an MPK to understand what I mean by that - Maybe Nam, Will, Cobalt, Bob, or Cliff can explain better, it just feels warm and feels like an extention of your arm.......

We meet/exceed all of the US Navy requirements for the knife evaluations where they soaked the knife/handle in seawater, kerosene, gasoline, and other fuels, oils, and solvents, and seawater, and both knife and handle performed perfectly. They even held the blue tip of a flame from a propane bottle to the handle for something like 20 seconds. When done, we just brushed the black carbon away and the handle looked like new again. I believe that Tom Clinton has that knife. We have also tested the handle against DEET, the handle was not affected.

Anyway, I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Rick

Will Kwan · Jul 13, 1999

As a survival type knife putting durability ahead of edge retention is not a bad idea.

Bob, the profile of the edge was very asymetrical when I received the knife. No offence ment towards Mission as I like the MPKS, but the knife was really poorly sharpened. When I started with the Spyderco sharpener the stone would not touch the edge on the left side even when I raised the angle a few degrees. I could keep the cutting performance reasonable but eventually I had to do something about the asymetrical edge. That is why I used the course stone from the Lansky kit on it. I don't think I changed the angle on the right side very much.

Anyways, I will put up with the barely noticable impaction and keep the better slicing performance. The MPKS is really easy to sharpen.

Like Bob saids I find the handle feels soft, like can compress it. Which adds the feeling of security. I think the more neutral balance contributes to the feeling of being an extention to your arm.

Cliff, when you are finished send it back sharpened preferably. Either way is fine.
I can try hardwood again and pay more attention.

Cliff, what do you think of the groves on the handle. I find that they really do seem to help retention.

Rick, the handle does indeed seem to be unharmed by DEET. The sheath is attacked by DEET. What type of kydex is used?

Will

Cliff Stamp · Jul 14, 1999

Rick, thanks for the details. I expected the handle to be as durable.

it just feels warm and feels like an extention of your arm.......

It does not feel as rigid as the MD handles and is much more stable than the Kraton CS ones. The exact shape it not the one I would personally like, but then again you have outlined sensible reasons for the choice for this in the above linked post.

As for the comments about it being compressible. I can sort of feel the same thing. But I don't think its the handle actually compressing. Maybe Rick could comment on this as he knows the specs.. It could be that the handle is giving a little but I think something else is happening.

If you grab something slick and hard and squeeze it tightly, it just mashes your tissues to mold your grip to the surface. This is rather uncomfortable. I think with the MPK handle, because the friction is fairly high, my skin will stay in place and this rigidity makes my grip feel stronger which allows me to use more force with less discomfort.

Cliff, when you are finished send it back sharpened preferably.

No problem.

Cliff, what do you think of the groves on the handle. I find that they really do seem to help retention.

They are definately better than doing nothing, and are a significantly improvement over grooving the other way like on the Spec Plus line from Ontario which tear my hands up nicely. I have not used the MPK for an extended period of time to see how much of a difference it makes, but from some slight work they don't seem to be overly abrasive.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 14 July 1999).]

bald1 · Jul 14, 1999

Will,

Thanks for the clarification on tweaking your edges. Mmmm... still leaves me in the dark as to why Cliff has gotten some deformation and I haven't, other than because mine is the smaller version I haven't pressed chopping tasks at all.

Cliff, Rick:

I'm absolutely sure that the handle doesn't compact at all when squeezed. It's just the nature of the beast. The material has unique qualities than endear the handle to the user. I like the description Rick used of it being "warm" although I'd prefer it be modified to a semi-sticky warmth engendered by the texture of the handle material. Great stuff!

I've been hesitant to drill my handle to add the missing lanyard hole. One, it's unique without; two, I'd hate to mess it up; three, I can't see parting with it for a return trip to California for the tweak. Looks like it stays as is

!

------------------
-=[Bob]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

Cliff Stamp · Jul 15, 1999

Bob, the indendation is minor and is only seen on repeated contacts with very hard wood. To be specific I have used the MPK twice in the manner. The first time was for about 45 minutes. After I got home I noticed 2 small indents. The second time it was for about 30 minutes and resulted in one small dent.

These dents would not be visible at arms length (to me anyway). They can be felt though and they require more work in the resharpening process and of course speed up the "blunting time". They are not near severe enough to say make the blade catch on fabric.

I don't see it as a major problem as by the time it would take to induce enough of them so that you would want to resharpen the blade for their sake, the edge would have been blunted anyway. However, if the RC could be raised a little without weakening the steel too much I would prefer that. But as Will said, for survival class knives it would obviously be better to err on the soft side.

-Cliff

Cliff Stamp · Jul 22, 1999

As an update on the MPK :

One of the concerns I had with it was using the handle for an extended period of time for chopping and other such heavy impact work. It is not as rounded as the MD grip, and without the deep index finger cutout I did feel that it could be more abrasive than I would like. To see if this would be a problem I did some clearing yesterday of Alder bushes. This is a very soft wood, easier to cut even than pine. As an indication of the level of resistance, the MPK can shear through branches of upwards of 1.5" diameter. After about 10 minutes of steady chopping I noticed that I was getting abrasion between my thumb and index finger (due to the somewhat "squared" handle contour") and beneath my pinky finger (due to the end hook on the grip).

I had asked Will in detail about this before and he had not noticed any such behavior so I figured that it was my problem and not the knife. I then used it paying particular attention to my grip. The reason for the irritation quickly became obvious. I was using a fairly loose grip which is identical to what I would use chopping with a khukuri. Now with the khukuri it doesn't matter if my hand slips a little as the handle slopes out from the middle preventing excessive slippage and the surface is very smooth. However on the MPK my hand will slip until it hits the end-hook which butts into my hand just underneath my pinky and since the surface is a little rough the constant motion produces a little abrasion between my thumb and forefinger.

I then switched to using a very tight grip which is not difficult to maintain as the surface of the MPK can easily be held tightly as it is not slippery. I continued chopping and found that the problem was removed. I chopped for about another 15-20 minutes and the hand aggravation did not worsen and in fact gradually went away. Even with a very tight grip the MPK is not uncomfortable due to excessive vibration.

The blade was blunted after this, but not indented and a little steeling and a few swipes with a ceramic rod had it back to shape again.

-Cliff

RUDY · Jul 21, 1999

Good review Mr. Stamp and very interesting observations. I find them very similar to how I wouold use my blades. On the khukuris I use a loose grip as you desbribed but on smaller blades like my Air Assault I use a very tight grip. I have never really had problems with abrasion points either.

I hate to get off topic too but I had a couple of questions on steeling as well. How many times can you steel a blade before it no longer works and you have to use a stone. I assume thats a hard question to answer specifically but any info would be appreciated. Also if the edge of a blade is impacted can you steel it still or must you take a stone to it then. I would guess it depends on the depth of the impact.

thanks and take care
collin

bald1 · Jul 21, 1999

Cliff,

As always your honesty is appreciated

! A firm solid grip is indeed the way to go with the Mission handle and with such there should, as you found out, be no pain, blisters, etc. at all. I find mine quite comfortable.

-=[Bob]=-

Cliff Stamp · Jul 23, 1999

Collin:

How many times can you steel a blade before it no longer works and you have to use a stone.

When you steel you are doing two things to the blade. The first is to just push the edge back inline. This happens really quickly and you should notice a difference in say the first 5-10 strokes. The second is to push the edge out even flatter and make it thinner. The more you steel the more this will happen. The downside to this is that if you do it a lot. Say 25 - 50 strokes per side you will have a very fragile edge that is quite likely to break off when you use it.

It does of course largely depend on the steel, temper and such, but basically you should only have to steel a few times to get the desired effect. If this does not really do anything then move up to the next abrasive step and try a ceramic or diamond rod or even a loaded strop.

The reason steeling stops working is that eventually the edge gets that weakened from flopping around that it just breaks off. This should take a long time though. As an example my brother had the CS Trailmaster for about a month and I sharpened it regularly with only a steel and a ceramic rod.

if the edge of a blade is impacted can you steel it still or must you take a stone to it then.

You can try. The worse that will happen is that the impacted part will break away. This however is no worse than if you ground it away during sharpening. If the steel is decently ductile, a lot of the times you can significantly reduce the impaction. You can rarely eliminate it totally though.

Bob, it is a nice design and it is growing on me. It works well for all around heavy utility work. I would be curious to see how the same grip would work on a heavier knife like the proposed 15" MPK in A2 or Ti.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 22 July 1999).]

missionknives · Jul 22, 1999

Cliff, nice review.
I have experienced the same thing. I hold the knife slightly tight and it works just fine. Also, nice explanation on steeling - that is exactly what happens.

15" prototypes are being built as we speak.

Rick

RUDY · Jul 22, 1999

Thanks for the answer Mr. Stamp. I can always count on you for a good explanation.

I am glad you mentioned how many times to use the steel on each side as I was using it more than 10 many quite often. A weak edge means chances of chipping and denting which as you mentioned leads to use of a stone which I often grind to much metal away with.

If it does not really do anything then move up to the next abrasive step and try a ceramic or diamond rod or even a loaded strop.

Just to make sure I understand you here though, you mean use one of the above to regrind a new edge on the blade. The reason for my confusion is it was my understanding that a strop was for finishing edges.

Steeling should las tme quite a while as I doubt I use my blade as much as your brother.

I haven't indented a blade yet but its nice to know what to do incase I do so thank you for explaining that as well.

thanks and take care
collin

Cliff Stamp · Jul 23, 1999

Rick :

15" prototypes are being built as we speak.

A2 or Ti?

Collin :

The reason for my confusion is it was my understanding that a strop was for finishing edges.

Depends on how its used. A plain leather strop or simple cardboard will not do anything but align the steel and not do that overly quickly. However if the strop is loaded with an abrasive compound it can act much like a very fine stone.

Note that when you use ceramic rods and such you are not grinding along the actual edge bevel but are creating a new one. That is why you can sharpen a knife so quickly with one :

The first wedge is your basic v ground edge. The second is the same edge that has worn down. It needs to be sharpened and you have two basic choices. The first is to take a stone to it and grind along the bevels recreating the same profile. This will reproduce the exact same cutting edge, however it takes a long time as you have to remove a fair amount of metal. The second method is to simply micro bevel the edge. Take a ceramic rod or a loaded strop and use it at an angle a little higher than the bevel and use just a few wipes (depending on the steel - for example Carbon V is about 5-10 strokes with an 800 grit ceramic rod).

The last wedge shows compares the two finishes with the micro bevel exaggerated hugely. After sharpening this way after a long time you will start to notice a decrease in cutting ability as well as it taking a bit longer to sharpen. This is simply because your micro bevel has become fairly large. You then take out your stone and recreate the full bevel restoring the edge to the first wedge and the cycle repeats. You can of course use a stone to micro bevel the edge, but be very careful as stones remove metal much faster than rods or loaded strops.

Note it takes a long, long time for the micro bevel to get that big you need to regrind the full edge bevel. Like I noted before I was just steeling and using a ceramic rod on the Trailmaster for a month before I sharpened it and the only reason I did it then was because I indented it contacts off of metals and rocks.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 23 July 1999).]

RUDY · Jul 23, 1999

Thanks Mr. Stamp. I think I am getting the hang of it here. However, I do have one more question.

During your review of the 20 inch AK you stated you burnished it and then stroked it with a ceramic rod a few times. Now did you use the ceramic rod to create the micro bevel you described in your previous post.

I am sorry to keep bothering you about it but I seem to be missing something here for which I also apologize. I just need to get the optimal performance out of my blades. Thank you very much for your time and sharing your expertise with me. I really appreciate it.

thanks and take care

Cliff Stamp · Jul 23, 1999

Collin :

Now did you use the ceramic rod to create the micro bevel you described in your previous post.

Exactly right.

I am sorry to keep bothering you about it

That is not necessary. This information mostly comes from others who have passed it along to me. If I was not open about sharing it, it would be a slap in the face to those that were with me.

-Cliff