Mission Knives of A-2 are no different than any other A-2 knife of similar design. Their Ti knives are unique, they are highly specialized tools IMHO that cut ok, which is no small feat for Ti knives. They would not be better than a steel knife for the general user. Divers and or EOD folks would find good use for them and their special properties. Most any steel knife will out cut them and the edge will last longer. They are also very light for their size, making them lousy choppers. A great dive knife and underwater pry bar, that actually can cut too.
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Mission Knives: "Toughest knives on the planet"?
- Thread starter mikemck
- Start date
I think by reading the answers to your post , that you will
be given new insight as to some tough A@@ knives ,and there
are a few out there
that are being used by some of the toughest
people on the planet !! I personally want one of those Urban Raven's
but thats me
be given new insight as to some tough A@@ knives ,and there
are a few out there
that are being used by some of the toughest people on the planet !! I personally want one of those Urban Raven's
but thats me
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I think it is hillarious that Mission states on their site that 44-46 RC is hard enough for a knife blade because afterall, how often do you cut anything that is harder than 45 RC. Most blades are 56 RC or higher. How many times do you cut something that is 56 RC? Does your knife blade get dull? If it was 45 RC you would need to sharpen your knife every time you used it for even some moderately easy cutting chores. Titanium is tough, but only when kept to these low RC values. If Titanium was so great a material to make knife blades out of don't you think that more companies and makeers would be using it? There are many knives that use a blade material that costs every bit as much or more than Titanium does, so cost is not the reason. The reason is that it makes a very mediocre blade.
A2 is very tough, but not any tougher than many other steels used to make knives, and not as tough as some. A2 is a really good knife steel. It even has reasonably good corrosion resistance. The reason for this is that A2 contains 4.5 to 5.5% Chromium. It also contains 1% Manganese, .9 to 1.5% Molybdenum, .3% Nickel, .5% Silicon and .15 to .5% Vanadium. This is far from a simple iron and carbon steel. As has been stated earlier, anyone using properly heat treated A2 would make a knife just as tough as Mission's.
The reason that I doubt that Mission makes the toughest knives on the planet is the same reason that I doubt the claims of any other manufacturer. Do you think that Mission would say anything else? I am sure that their knives are very tough, but there are far too many other knives being made for me to think that there is not a tougher one somewhere. Just call it the skeptic in me.
Edited to correct spelling errors.
A2 is very tough, but not any tougher than many other steels used to make knives, and not as tough as some. A2 is a really good knife steel. It even has reasonably good corrosion resistance. The reason for this is that A2 contains 4.5 to 5.5% Chromium. It also contains 1% Manganese, .9 to 1.5% Molybdenum, .3% Nickel, .5% Silicon and .15 to .5% Vanadium. This is far from a simple iron and carbon steel. As has been stated earlier, anyone using properly heat treated A2 would make a knife just as tough as Mission's.
The reason that I doubt that Mission makes the toughest knives on the planet is the same reason that I doubt the claims of any other manufacturer. Do you think that Mission would say anything else? I am sure that their knives are very tough, but there are far too many other knives being made for me to think that there is not a tougher one somewhere. Just call it the skeptic in me.
Edited to correct spelling errors.
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In responce to the "spring material" question, all knives are made of a high quality spring material- it's called steel. I'd bet that a fully spring tempered knife made of 5160 would out perform the Ti knives in any cutting tasks and all 'toughness' tests. If I wanted something that would never rust but still cut if it had to, I'd use bronze.
I don't think there was ever a question of Ti being able to 'outcut' a steel blade, although it keeps coming up again & again, for some reason.
If Ti will take a hair popping edge and hold it on a par with, say, 440c, that's not bad at all, considering the other benefits that Ti offers.
If the worst you can say about Ti is that it won't hold an edge as well as the high end steels, I don't see a real problem..I'm not worried about needing to sharpen my knife every once in awhile, especially if it's as easy to do as has been reported.
Add to the above the fact that Ti is much less prone to chipping and fracturing, as well as being much less prone to taking a set even when flexed well beyond the point where most steel blades will snap, and again, I don't see the downside.
As for the Rc of 45, again I don't see a problem, overall, based solely on what I have read.
What is the average Rc of the materials that are being cut, on a day to day basis? If, as Mission states, most daily cutting chores involve cutting materials with an Rc below 45, then an Rc of 45 would seem to be sufficient. I, however, do not know the Rc of the materials I personally cut for the most part, so I can't say for sure.
It would seem, at least so far, that the only person in this entire thread that has actually owned and used a Ti knife from Mission is Cliff, and his review was favorable, from what I read.
Surely, someone else has owned and used a Ti knife, and would like to comment on it's viability for every day use, based on actual real world experience.
If Ti will take a hair popping edge and hold it on a par with, say, 440c, that's not bad at all, considering the other benefits that Ti offers.
If the worst you can say about Ti is that it won't hold an edge as well as the high end steels, I don't see a real problem..I'm not worried about needing to sharpen my knife every once in awhile, especially if it's as easy to do as has been reported.
Add to the above the fact that Ti is much less prone to chipping and fracturing, as well as being much less prone to taking a set even when flexed well beyond the point where most steel blades will snap, and again, I don't see the downside.
As for the Rc of 45, again I don't see a problem, overall, based solely on what I have read.
What is the average Rc of the materials that are being cut, on a day to day basis? If, as Mission states, most daily cutting chores involve cutting materials with an Rc below 45, then an Rc of 45 would seem to be sufficient. I, however, do not know the Rc of the materials I personally cut for the most part, so I can't say for sure.
It would seem, at least so far, that the only person in this entire thread that has actually owned and used a Ti knife from Mission is Cliff, and his review was favorable, from what I read.
Surely, someone else has owned and used a Ti knife, and would like to comment on it's viability for every day use, based on actual real world experience.
It's quite obvious that some knives are just 'tougher' than others.
Take the Strider AR or GB. They are supposed to be some extremely tough knives, although I have never actually read or heard of anyone using one to it's full potential. But they are believed to be very tough indeed.
This belief is probably based on the fact that something that big would have to be tough, and also because they come with an unconditional warranty. Well duh, you make something big enough and the average human being is going to have a tough time damaging it...that's pretty simple to understand.
Personally, I would put my TOPS CQT 747 or 711 up against either the AR or GB.
Or how about the HI 1" thick Khukri's? I don't think there is much possibility of anyone breaking one of those, intentionally or unintentionally, so I guess you could say those are some tough knives.
Hell, even a 5/16" thick blade is beyond the capabilities of most people to damage without mechanical assistance.
But really, there is a point where a tool is just not practical anymore, for the average person.
Therefore, my hat is off to any company or individual that can produce an extremely tough and practical tool in a reasonably sized package, which is what Mission knives seems to have done.
Is Missions "Toughest knives on the planet" claim a bit broad? Sure it is, but it's not even close to being as ridiculous as some of the other claims from some of the other Mfgs. In my opinion, the claim is meant to get your attention and entice you to take a close look and do some reasearch to help you make an informed and intelligent decision, based on what you find.
Noboby expects you to just blindly believe whatever nonsense you read and base your decisions on ad hype...although quite a few people do just that, but that's another story altogether.
Take the Strider AR or GB. They are supposed to be some extremely tough knives, although I have never actually read or heard of anyone using one to it's full potential. But they are believed to be very tough indeed.
This belief is probably based on the fact that something that big would have to be tough, and also because they come with an unconditional warranty. Well duh, you make something big enough and the average human being is going to have a tough time damaging it...that's pretty simple to understand.
Personally, I would put my TOPS CQT 747 or 711 up against either the AR or GB.
Or how about the HI 1" thick Khukri's? I don't think there is much possibility of anyone breaking one of those, intentionally or unintentionally, so I guess you could say those are some tough knives.
Hell, even a 5/16" thick blade is beyond the capabilities of most people to damage without mechanical assistance.
But really, there is a point where a tool is just not practical anymore, for the average person.
Therefore, my hat is off to any company or individual that can produce an extremely tough and practical tool in a reasonably sized package, which is what Mission knives seems to have done.
Is Missions "Toughest knives on the planet" claim a bit broad? Sure it is, but it's not even close to being as ridiculous as some of the other claims from some of the other Mfgs. In my opinion, the claim is meant to get your attention and entice you to take a close look and do some reasearch to help you make an informed and intelligent decision, based on what you find.
Noboby expects you to just blindly believe whatever nonsense you read and base your decisions on ad hype...although quite a few people do just that, but that's another story altogether.
Cliff Stamp
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Mikemck :
Unless you are cutting hardened steel, or rock, the hardness of the materials you cut on a regular basis (rope, wood, flesh etc.) is so low, that it won't even register on the RC scale used to measure hardness for knives. Bone and teeth are probably the hardest, teeth are in the mid to low thirties.
However, this is somewhat deceptive. Knots in wood for example can damage blades that are much harder than the wood, because while they can't directly impact the edges, they can deform them. During a contact the wood will compress for an instant, and then its resistance to further compression will be too high, and then the edge on the blade will bend as its lateral strength is exceeded.
For example, while clearing some limbs off of a piece of Pine (or Fir), I accidently hit the serrated part of the MPK, off of the limbs a few times. After finishing the cutting I noted that one of the serrations had been folded over to the side. Similar light damage was seen when using that section of the blade splitting some dry and knotty wood.
In regards to general edge retention. The serrations are quite aggressive and last a very long time. They far exceed the ~500 cut capacity on 3/8" hemp rope which is often used as a high end standard. The plain edge will not do nearly as well, on such cutting, but then you don't use it for that anyway. It holds up very well for chopping and such, you would be hard pressed to dull it during a single chopping session, and it responds well to a strop or aligning via a steel. Leave the edge filed for maximum aggression and edge retention during slicing, and maintain with a butchers steel.
As for breaking one, I bent the tip prying in wood, and could have broke it if I cared to. However I have not seen a knife of similar penetration abilies (scaled by mass), not be bent, and many get broken, during the same task (digging a hole through a 2x4). The serrations are the only real durability problem as they can be impacted quite readily as they are thin, and you can in fact grind them right off if you try to cut through hard materials. I did so on steel braided tubing.
As for cutting ability, that is dominated by geometry not materials. You could make a knife out of mild steel which could cut as well as any high end knife of the same geometry. Ti has no problem obtaining a razor edge, or a very aggressive one if you prefer, so it is just a matter of getting the edge profile where you want to get the desired performance. You can easily file it to shape.
Talonite/Stellite 6K has many similar drawbacks due to a low RC, and doesn't have the impact toughenss or flexibilty of Missions Ti.
-Cliff
Unless you are cutting hardened steel, or rock, the hardness of the materials you cut on a regular basis (rope, wood, flesh etc.) is so low, that it won't even register on the RC scale used to measure hardness for knives. Bone and teeth are probably the hardest, teeth are in the mid to low thirties.
However, this is somewhat deceptive. Knots in wood for example can damage blades that are much harder than the wood, because while they can't directly impact the edges, they can deform them. During a contact the wood will compress for an instant, and then its resistance to further compression will be too high, and then the edge on the blade will bend as its lateral strength is exceeded.
For example, while clearing some limbs off of a piece of Pine (or Fir), I accidently hit the serrated part of the MPK, off of the limbs a few times. After finishing the cutting I noted that one of the serrations had been folded over to the side. Similar light damage was seen when using that section of the blade splitting some dry and knotty wood.
In regards to general edge retention. The serrations are quite aggressive and last a very long time. They far exceed the ~500 cut capacity on 3/8" hemp rope which is often used as a high end standard. The plain edge will not do nearly as well, on such cutting, but then you don't use it for that anyway. It holds up very well for chopping and such, you would be hard pressed to dull it during a single chopping session, and it responds well to a strop or aligning via a steel. Leave the edge filed for maximum aggression and edge retention during slicing, and maintain with a butchers steel.
As for breaking one, I bent the tip prying in wood, and could have broke it if I cared to. However I have not seen a knife of similar penetration abilies (scaled by mass), not be bent, and many get broken, during the same task (digging a hole through a 2x4). The serrations are the only real durability problem as they can be impacted quite readily as they are thin, and you can in fact grind them right off if you try to cut through hard materials. I did so on steel braided tubing.
As for cutting ability, that is dominated by geometry not materials. You could make a knife out of mild steel which could cut as well as any high end knife of the same geometry. Ti has no problem obtaining a razor edge, or a very aggressive one if you prefer, so it is just a matter of getting the edge profile where you want to get the desired performance. You can easily file it to shape.
Talonite/Stellite 6K has many similar drawbacks due to a low RC, and doesn't have the impact toughenss or flexibilty of Missions Ti.
-Cliff
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Thanks again Cliff. It is always great to get the opinion of someone that has actually put one of these knives through it's paces.
"MISSION KNIVES - The Self Proclaimed Toughest And Most Mediocre Cutter, On The Planet!" That is not gonna sell knives. Here are some links I have found from people who actually own a Mission titanium knife. Maybe we should read some of these and make our own decisions.
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...r=95055&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...=127578&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=UBB18&Number=48531
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...=135398&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...r=95055&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...=127578&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=UBB18&Number=48531
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...=135398&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
DaveH,
Well, it is fair to say that I'm becoming more convinced, based on what I have read elsewhere and here.
What I have read here is a review from one person ( Cliff ) that has actually owned and used one of the Mission Ti knives, and pseudo reviews from several people that apparently have never owned, used, or handled one. If this is not true, I welcome a correction.
While I do realize that everyone has an opinion, actual experience will always tend to make for a more valid and credible opinion..Anyone disagree with that?
Everyone that has actually used one speaks favorably of them. Again, if that is not right, I would welcome the correction.
Extensive research and reading paints Mission's Beta Ti in a very good light, with the only 'con' being slighltly poor edge retention, supposedly comparable to 440a-c.
Now, if that is the only drawback, it's a non-issuse, at least for me.
In short, the only bad "reviews" seem to be coming from the people who don't and never have owned a Ti knife from mission. Again with the welcoming a correction if I'm wrong.
Per Rob's advice though, I will be getting myself a set of the venerable Ginsu wunderkind for backup should my MPF and MPK fail me
Well, it is fair to say that I'm becoming more convinced, based on what I have read elsewhere and here.
What I have read here is a review from one person ( Cliff ) that has actually owned and used one of the Mission Ti knives, and pseudo reviews from several people that apparently have never owned, used, or handled one. If this is not true, I welcome a correction.
While I do realize that everyone has an opinion, actual experience will always tend to make for a more valid and credible opinion..Anyone disagree with that?
Everyone that has actually used one speaks favorably of them. Again, if that is not right, I would welcome the correction.
Extensive research and reading paints Mission's Beta Ti in a very good light, with the only 'con' being slighltly poor edge retention, supposedly comparable to 440a-c.
Now, if that is the only drawback, it's a non-issuse, at least for me.
In short, the only bad "reviews" seem to be coming from the people who don't and never have owned a Ti knife from mission. Again with the welcoming a correction if I'm wrong.
Per Rob's advice though, I will be getting myself a set of the venerable Ginsu wunderkind for backup should my MPF and MPK fail me
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to my knowledge i have never tried to cut anything with my knife that could be measured on the Rockwell C scale, and for some reason my knives still dull.
Ti vs 440C in edge retention? not much of a contest if you ask me.
Ti vs 440C in edge retention? not much of a contest if you ask me.
Bronco
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Knives get dull for any number of reasons, not the least of which was well explained by Cliff in para. 2 of his previous post.
One thing to keep in mind when discussing the relative pros and cons of Beta-Ti knives is the relationship between tensile strength and yield strength. Without question, high performance cutlery steels enjoy an advantage over titanium in terms of absolute tensile strength (i.e. the point beyond which the material will actually begin to rip apart). However, as hard-core, he-men (and he-women
) knife users we must be equally concerned with the yield strength of our blades. Yield strength defines the point beyond which a blade will remain bent (or in other words, the point at which we cross over from elastic deformation to plastic deformation). This is important both in a macro sense when we're prying or exerting a significant lateral force across the entire blade, and perhaps even more so at the micro level when we deform the cutting edge while performing much more routine cutting chores.One favorable aspect of Beta-Ti is that its yield strength is very close to its overall tensile strength. In layman's terms this means that with a Mission blade you can exert a force on the blade that comes very close to reaching the tensile strength limit without even causing a permanent bend (a permanent bend which will quickly lead you down the road to fatigue failures). With steel, on the other hand, the yield strength is a lesser percentage of the tensile strength. Therefore, in practical edgeholding terms, the tensile strength advantage that steel enjoys over ti doesn't quite tell the whole story.
If you're into long distance or high altitude backpacking you'll find that you can a hook a seriously strong, fixed blade Mission knife on your belt often times for less weight than your buddy's folder.
Mike,
One thing that bugs me about the Mission knives, if I heard correctly, was that they were 1/4" thick. The only time I would want a knife that thick, like on a Busse, is for chopping purposes, or any other type of cutting that is going to utilize the heft of such a massively thick blade. However, the Missions are titanium, so they are obviously much lighter. Probably not too good for chopping, but now you have the disadvantage of a thick blade that does not make a very fine cutter, nor can chop, either.
One thing that bugs me about the Mission knives, if I heard correctly, was that they were 1/4" thick. The only time I would want a knife that thick, like on a Busse, is for chopping purposes, or any other type of cutting that is going to utilize the heft of such a massively thick blade. However, the Missions are titanium, so they are obviously much lighter. Probably not too good for chopping, but now you have the disadvantage of a thick blade that does not make a very fine cutter, nor can chop, either.
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thanks for the info on yeild strength vs tensile strength, that would be a great advantage, now the question is how does the yeild strength of Ti and Heat treated S30 compare? since a bent knife can in someways be regarded as a broken knife.
(the RC stuff was a bit of sarcasm on my part, a friend of mine once tried to RC test a nickel, it wasnt even hard enough to get a reading)
Bacterial attack! I didnt know i had to worry about that, and Poop i just sharpened one of my knives, should i break out the Neosporin? On the other hand Mission knives maybe able to survive a bio-war but Busses are Nuclear.
you have to question any company that inclueds a superlative (an est word) in describing their product, i like companies that are a bit more creative, like strider they are just "high speed tools for hardcore individuals" not the "highest speediest tooliest tools for the hardest-core and indivudualisticest individuals"
off to sterilize then smear neosporine on my lowly mictrotechs and benchmades...
(the RC stuff was a bit of sarcasm on my part, a friend of mine once tried to RC test a nickel, it wasnt even hard enough to get a reading)
Bacterial attack! I didnt know i had to worry about that, and Poop i just sharpened one of my knives, should i break out the Neosporin? On the other hand Mission knives maybe able to survive a bio-war but Busses are Nuclear.
you have to question any company that inclueds a superlative (an est word) in describing their product, i like companies that are a bit more creative, like strider they are just "high speed tools for hardcore individuals" not the "highest speediest tooliest tools for the hardest-core and indivudualisticest individuals"
off to sterilize then smear neosporine on my lowly mictrotechs and benchmades...
Bronco
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That's a very fair question, and when comparing a top notch cutlery steel like S30V with Beta-Ti I'm sure that the steel still holds an overall advantage. I only wished to point out that the relative strengths of these two materials in practical terms is not as disparate as one might imagine when making a judgement based solely on straight tensile strength numbers.
And before you go breaking out the penicillin, I'd hazard a guess that the reference to prevention against "bacterial attack" is meant to put at ease the mind of anyone who has ever carried a leather-stack handled Kabar or Randall into a jungle environment for an extended period of time.
komondor,
That's an excellent point, and one I had not considered.
Really though, I would be more likely to pry than chop.
1/4" still seems to be a bit of overkill, at least for me, but I guess someone, somewhere, would need it.
The thickness does impact cutting ability though, and that kinda sucks....
That's an excellent point, and one I had not considered.
Really though, I would be more likely to pry than chop.
1/4" still seems to be a bit of overkill, at least for me, but I guess someone, somewhere, would need it.
The thickness does impact cutting ability though, and that kinda sucks....
Ferrous metals are nutrient to bacteria. Although it is a slow process, deterioration is there. So when you have the bacteria (bugs) and corrosion (rust, water, etc.) it speeds up the deterioration process. That is what is meant by bacteria. Screw the neosporin and break out the tetnis shots!
As for 1/4" knives, my MPK starts with a 1/4" bar stock and has a V-grind down to the sharpened edge. It is not 1/4" inch throughout with a sharpened edge. It is not a 1/4" pry bar, even though I can use it as one. It only has a 1/4" spine, which is where the V-grind begins.
As for 1/4" knives, my MPK starts with a 1/4" bar stock and has a V-grind down to the sharpened edge. It is not 1/4" inch throughout with a sharpened edge. It is not a 1/4" pry bar, even though I can use it as one. It only has a 1/4" spine, which is where the V-grind begins.
Cliff Stamp
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komondor :
[1/4" stock and light weight]
As MSmith noted, the edge profile is critical not the raw spine thickness. The edge on the MPK is definately above average for that type of knife based on what I have seen, and allows a cutting ability above knives of thinner stock with thicker edge profiles. Also as noted, prying is the critical aspect which makes the stock thickness a requirement. Lateral strength is ~quadratic in thickness, so a 3/16" knife has only ~50% of the strength of a 1/4" one.
-Cliff
[1/4" stock and light weight]
As MSmith noted, the edge profile is critical not the raw spine thickness. The edge on the MPK is definately above average for that type of knife based on what I have seen, and allows a cutting ability above knives of thinner stock with thicker edge profiles. Also as noted, prying is the critical aspect which makes the stock thickness a requirement. Lateral strength is ~quadratic in thickness, so a 3/16" knife has only ~50% of the strength of a 1/4" one.
-Cliff
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Are Mission knives the "toughest on the planet?" I don't know and I really doubt that this animal exists. I do know, however, that a Mission MPF is a great knife and has been very serviceable for me.
I have had the MPF for several years. I bought it from Mission. It was from the first production run. It has the long thumb post.
It is a big knife but light for its size. It is a smooth opener and it locks up like the proverbial bank vault. I have never subjected it to testing like Cliff does but I have never had a problem with it. I does not hold an edge like a steel blade but it is very easy to sharpen. (By the way, Cliff, I never gave any thought to a steel. Tried it last night and it works very well. Thanks for the tip.) I never had a problem cutting anything I needed to cut.
I've used it around the house, the workplace, the yard and on a fishing trip or two. No problems. No corrision, either. Easy to clean -- I put it in the dishwasher and shake it off when finished. A little Tuff Glide on the pivot and you are ready to go.
If I was going hunting and expected to have to dress-out an animal I would take something else. If I expected to have to do any chopping, I would take a hatchet. But for general duty the MPF is hard to beat.
I have had the MPF for several years. I bought it from Mission. It was from the first production run. It has the long thumb post.
It is a big knife but light for its size. It is a smooth opener and it locks up like the proverbial bank vault. I have never subjected it to testing like Cliff does but I have never had a problem with it. I does not hold an edge like a steel blade but it is very easy to sharpen. (By the way, Cliff, I never gave any thought to a steel. Tried it last night and it works very well. Thanks for the tip.) I never had a problem cutting anything I needed to cut.
I've used it around the house, the workplace, the yard and on a fishing trip or two. No problems. No corrision, either. Easy to clean -- I put it in the dishwasher and shake it off when finished. A little Tuff Glide on the pivot and you are ready to go.
If I was going hunting and expected to have to dress-out an animal I would take something else. If I expected to have to do any chopping, I would take a hatchet. But for general duty the MPF is hard to beat.