Missouri knife law, automatics and concealed carry

M

MSR

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Nov 3, 2000
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I was at the gun show today and listening to a conversation between a seller and an individual. I know, why. The seller was telling the individual that he could purchase and then carry either one of these two items, a set of brass knuckles or any auto knife as long as he possessed a concealed carry license. This dealer was not selling either item just trying to educate the individual. I thought brass knuckles are illegal everywhere first of all. I have seen this mentioned several times since moving to Missouri and every time I go and re-read the state knife laws and find nothing relating the two. Hopefully the individual will read the law before he makes a felony mistake. My question is why do I keep hearing this stated as law. I accept that sometimes reading and understanding the laws as written can be mind-boggling but this one looks quite clear. There is no mention of anything related to knives in the concealed carry laws.
 
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You would be correct. Mere possession of either of those weapons is illegal under Section 571.020 and the statute contains no such excemption.

Further, the permit in MO is called a "Concealed carry endorsement" and states:
Any person who has been issued a concealed carry endorsement on a driver's license or nondriver's license and such endorsement or license has not been suspended, revoked, canceled, or denied may carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or within a vehicle.
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Why do people persist in this misconception? We may never know, but I can tell you that in my lifetime in every jurisdiction I have lived, the amount of people who have a completely wrong idea about weapon carry laws easily outnumber anyone who knows the real deal. And most of the time there is no logical explanation whatsoever how the erroneous belief came about. I was well into my 20 before I discovered that the 100+ people (a few who were cops) who had told me that carrying a folder over 3" was illegal were all wrong. And that there has never been such a law at any time in any part of the state. My only guess is it happens just like a lot of urban legends; word of mouth, fear, idle speculation dressed up as fact.

This abundance of wrong ideas is one major reason I hang out in this thread to begin with. I like telling people the reality of things and backing it up with proof and documentation.
 
I've seen people online who thought they could carry anything as long as it was for self-defense. For some reason, they were under the impression that as long as they don't intend to use a weapon offensively, they could carry things like brass knuckles, switchblades, saps, etc.

Far too many people are ignorant of the law and choose to remain as such. It's even worse when you show them the specific law and they still try to argue their side. That's what's nice about this board. I love the fact that people actively come here to confirm the legal status of whatever they want to carry, since it proves that at least some people out their are trying to be responsible.
 
Read it carefully.
"571.020. 1. A person commits a crime if such person knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
(7) A switchblade knife;
(9) Knuckles.
a crime pursuant to subdivision (7)...or (9)...is a class A misdemeanor."

So no felonies for possession, but it's not really legal and I'm sure a huge hassle if you are caught.

But maybe, just maybe some automatics are legal, and here's how. Read section 571-010, it's just a list of legal definitions.

Definitions are important because they define the objects the laws are talking about, and what Missouri law defines as a "knife" actually excludes what you and I would commonly call a knife. In fact, what Missouri excludes as a knife includes my entire collection! This is all important because the Missouri definition of a "switchblade knife" relies upon the definition of a "knife" first and foremost as the primary definition of a switchblade knife. Let's read.

"571.010. As used in this chapter, the following terms shall mean:"
Ok, so first off we're just saying that this section defines the terms used in the following sections, this of course includes section 571.020, which is where Missouri has outlawed the dangerous "switchblade knife". Let's learn what a "knife" is.

(12) "Knife", any dagger, dirk, stiletto, or bladed hand instrument that is readily capable of inflicting serious physical injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person. For purposes of this chapter, "knife" does not include any ordinary pocketknife with no blade more than four inches in length;
Ok, seems pretty simple, the first sentence lays it out, "knife" is pretty much anything sharp you hold in your hand. I guess if you wanted to inlay knives into the tips of your boots and bootstab your friends you're pretty much cool. At this point I'd like to remind you I AM NOT A LAWYER. Back to topic, the second sentence is interesting and somewhat hard to read, let's look at it by itself.

"knife does not include any ordinary pocketknife with no blade more than four inches in length"

....! I hate double-negatives, what the shit does that mean? Let's try removing the negative statements to make it understandable.
"knife does include any ordinary pocketknife with a blade more than four inches in length"

Oh, now that's simple! A knife is now something with a blade longer than four inches! Of course that's not really what the law says. Let's try just removing one of the negatives.
"knife does not include any ordinary pocketknife with a blade more than four inches in length"

Ok, I understand that, an ordinary pocketknife with a blade longer than four inches is not a "knife". Perhaps they were planning separate legislation just for folding swords, I don't know. Of course we're just playing word games again, this isn't actually what the law says, and would you really expect the law would state that a blade longer than four inches is just an ordinary pocketknife? (you say "no" here).

The law actually says "no blade more than four inches in length". They're looking for the opposite of "blade more than four inches of length. So it's fair to surmise that a "knife" does not include pocketknives with blades less than four inches. I just wish I had a definition of "ordinary pocketknife". The only thing the legal definitions give us on that is telling us it's not a "knife" and has a blade less than four inches. I'm guessing it must also fit in a pocket, and be ordinary. You guys with the fancy damascus blades don't count. .... ..., you have too much money anyway so just buy yourself out of trouble Mmmmkay.

GOD YOU ARE BORING. Why the hell does this matter anyway?

Quickly now, let's look at the definition for switchblade knife.

"(20) "Switchblade knife", any knife which has a blade that folds or closes into the handle or sheath, and:

(a) That opens automatically by pressure applied to a button or other device located on the handle; or

(b) That opens or releases from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or by the application of centrifugal force.

Wait, what?
"Switchblade knife, any knife which has a blade that folds or closes into the handle or sheath, and..."

Ok, I know it's been a long time, but what is a knife again? Actually, who cares?! What is NOT a knife? A pocketknife with a blade less than four inches! They've explicitly told us that. It doesn't matter what the second two conditions are if we don't meet the first!

Does this mean your pocketknife is legal in Missouri if it's automatic and under four inches? I'M NOT A ....... LAWYER, but it seems it could be so. I think it depends on if your pocketknife with blade less than four inches is "ordinary", which as a legal term is not defined and patently ambiguous.

So what will happen if you are caught with your automatic pocketnife less than four inches? Well, they will take it away, you will have to go to court, and you will lose your case because you were so silly as to believe the law might work in your favor. Maybe you'd get it on appeal, and won't that be wonderful! Just think, after spending untold tens of thousands of dollars you can finally hold and carry your $200 automatic (and ordinary) pocketknife.
 
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Why did I just receive a warning for profanity on my profile? Please explain:

Inappropriate Language

Save the profanity for Whine & Cheese.
 
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MSR said:
There is no mention of anything related to knives in the concealed carry laws.
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I'm not a lawyer, nor do I live in MO, but, from the Missouri Revised Statutes:
Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.
571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife

So, no concealed knives, right? Not exactly:
4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
 
In Missouri is a knife with "assisted opening" but not a true automatic considered to be a switchblade and therefor illegal? I really do not understand the "gravity" or "centrifugal force" thing.
 
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the federal government determined an assisted opener is not an automatic knife. This does not include the "gravity" or "centrifugal force" knife.
 
The law as quoted above would not include assisted openers as switchblades, but I would ask your local DA as many states/cities feel different about the exact wording vs the intent of the law. The federal "law" everyone keeps referring to was a clarification of definiton of what is a switchblade. The US Customs ( now ICE) was trying to ban the import of Assisted openers via their rules and an attachment to a bill signed by the President clearded this up and stopped them ( thanks to Knife Rights and Dour Ritter so suppot his group). That said the federal law only applies to import, interstate transport, and possession on Federal land ( which states are not part of), so please do not quote federal law when asking about state or local laws as there is little relevance to offer ( I don't mean to sound profound here but I have tried to help this mis understanding a few hundred times now...) You need to watch the gravity knife defintion on knives posted above as that is the exact same wording that NYC uses in the NYS law that causes a few thousand arrests each year for any knife that can flick open. I know you will tell me no one enforces it that way, but they did not enforce it that way in NY for a long time either...
 
Just to throw a kink into the Missouri issue, as of August 28th no one in Missouri outside of active law enforcement can own an automatic knife. Legislators removed the curio and relic clause so as to make possession of SBR's, and suppressors available to purchase without an additional FFL requirement. It was the curio and relic clause that allowed Missouri citizens to own an automatic knife as long as you did not carry it. I sent the legislators who crafted the law a request to clarify if they were going to correct this as they admitted it was an unintended consequence. I have not received a reply.
 
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MSR said:
Just to throw a kink into the Missouri issue, as of August 28th no one in Missouri outside of active law enforcement can own an automatic knife. Legislators removed the curio and relic clause so as to make possession of SBR's, and suppressors available to purchase without and additional FFL requirement. It was the curio and relic clause that allowed Missouri citizens to own an automatic knife as long as you did not carry it. I sent the legislators who crafted the law a request to clarify if they were going to correct this as they admitted it was an unintended consequence. I have not received a reply.
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This unintended consequence will be addressed next legislative session, at a minimum...
 
It's too bad I think, that all this is so unclear. Personally I think that there will be a wide variety of opinions among different LEO's re what is and what is
not legal. AO, blade length, concealed or not, folder or straight blade, being carried or just stored at home - I just wish it were all clear. Oh well...
 
tsuki2000 said:
I've seen people online who thought they could carry anything as long as it was for self-defense. For some reason, they were under the impression that as long as they don't intend to use a weapon offensively, they could carry things like brass knuckles, switchblades, saps, etc.

Far too many people are ignorant of the law and choose to remain as such. It's even worse when you show them the specific law and they still try to argue their side. That's what's nice about this board. I love the fact that people actively come here to confirm the legal status of whatever they want to carry, since it proves that at least some people out their are trying to be responsible.
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That's cause the laws are way too open for interpretation until you get to case law, then it defines it more.

That's talking state laws. Which are easy to find online. When you get into city and county ordinances which can be very different from state laws......it becomes much more challenging.
 
MSR said:
...as of August 28th no one in Missouri outside of active law enforcement can own an automatic knife.
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I've often wondered what exactly is the justification for the concept that a tool that is appropriate for a public servant is not appropriate for their masters?
 
MSR said:
As of yet, no mention of this during the current legislation? I have a feeling they are ignoring it.
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Just because you haven't heard anything, you shouldn't assume we are ignoring it. When we say we are intending to address something, you can be sure that we will. Sometimes things take a while and often work such as this is best accomplished quietly. When we can say something publicly, we will. Thanks for your patience.
 
Who do I write to get an answer to these questions? (Can I carry an auto in MO. and what is the legal blade length?) - If I can get it in writing from the proper official I will feel comfortable carrying the knife with a copy of the letter on me. I've discovered that if you write enough times eventually someone usually says it's OK. I've never dealt with knives before though, just the ATF.
I tried to read the law and can't make sense of it. Usually the officials can't either, until they want to bust you, then all-of-a-sudden it's clear as a bell to them in their favor.
 
One of the best ways to find info about existing lawis to contact the Mo. AG directly.

I did, a couple of years ago,and was told rhat the law allowed concealed carry of

" an ordinary pocket knife with no blade more than four inches long" . I was not able to get

clarification as to what constitutes "ordinary". The safest bet is to read "slip joint"...

Open carry is the same as it is for firearms...most places.

I routinely ask LEOs about knife law. There isn't much agreement among them...some

say 4" concealed...some say 6"...many don't worry about it as a primary issue,unless

there is demonstrated intent to use it as a weapon.....then it becomes a weapon

nomatter what the type or size.

Additionally,some municipalities (including Branson) have enacted more restrictive

ordinances.

Assisted openers are permitted for LEOs, EMTs,& Fire Fighters.

Knuckels...NO !
 
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