Mmawannabe - please do the right thing

[DShahriari]

All,

Posting here at the suggestion of one of the mods, Ryan (aka Rycen) who has been dilligently trying to help me resolve an issue with another member, Chris Cogs (Mmawannabe), regarding a knife I purchased from him. I have been trying for several weeks to get the member to do what I feel is fair here, but as he has not I'm posting the details here in public for the community to see. Please understand that before I did this I gave Mmawannabe every chance to make things right and I don't take posting something negative about another member lightly.

On June 26th I purchased a Crusader Forge VIS T from Mmawannabe from this sales thread, this was my first purchase on BF: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1082448-Crusader-Forge-Vis-T

When I recieved the knife on July 1st I was shocked to see that the knife was left handed. The seller's thread made no mention of the fact that the knife was a lefty. None of the typical "Lefty Alert" that is de rigueur when selling such a knife. The sales thread had pictures (posted by another member) but in my haste to score this rare knife I neglected to notice that the knife was a lefty. I fully accept 100% responsibility for that oversight and I should have looked more closely, but I think we all know what it's like to be on the hunt for a blade - when you finally find it you need to pull the trigger quickly before someone beats you to it! Upon receiving the knife I sent the seller the following email, which is posted verbatim:

Chris,

The knife got here today. I'm curious as to why you never mentioned that this is a left handed knife? I assumed that the pictures were flipped around since ads for left handed knives on the forums always specify that the knife is left handed. Additionally this knife is definitely is used condition, which is not really what was indicated in your ad, where you stated that the original owner said it was new but that you found a few marks. This is clearly a used and carried knife and not one with simply a few marks.

I'd like for you to refund my money and I can ship this back to you insured USPS priority tomorrow. I truly think that is fair given that your ad didn't adequately or accurately describe the knife. I will cover shipping so at the end of the day neither of us will lose anything financially. Let me know what your thoughts are.

Dave

The seller's response was not what I was expecting:

Sorry. Pics were plain as day. Didn't try to hide anything. I said exactly what I was told by original owner on bf.
Mentioned scratches and price reflected. I suggest if u r not happy that u sell it.

Chris,

That strikes me as pretty lousy for a couple of reasons.

First, while I fully admit that the pictures don't lie I need to point out that I have never seen a lefty knife for sale on BF or the USN that doesn't specifically state that it is a lefty. Moreover it is quite common for photos to be flipped around when posted online and I feel that the seller of a knife of this cost should take more care in providing the specifics of the knife for sale.

Second, your handling of shipping in this transaction was less than excellent. You neglected to ship express per our agreement, and when you did ship you provided a bad tracking number. Both of these errors had to be brought to your attention by me.

Third, you state that you put in your ad the condition of the knife "as told to you by the original owner". I'm sure you looked at the knife when you received it, so I wonder why you felt OK misrepresenting the condition simply because the original owner had. Certainly him understating the degree to which the knife had been used and carried doesn't justify you doing so as well.

I'm not asking for much, simply for you to refund my money at which time I will return your knife to you in exactly the same condition I received it, shipped fully insured at my expense. I would hope that this would be something you'd consider even in the absence of the above mentioned issues, but given these issues I'm frankly quite shocked at your refusal.

I am asking you again to make this right by refunding my money. If you choose not to I will follow up with both PayPal and Blade Forums in order to see what recourse may be available to me through those channels.

Thanks for your consideration,

Dave

This email went unresponded to so I sent one more:

Chris,

One additional thing - I'm pasting below the rules for sellers on BladeForums. The entire post can be found here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=751&a=98

I wanted to draw your attention specifically to item three. Upon reading this rule can you honestly say that you feel you did your due diligence in this matter?

Please respond by 8:00 am tomorrow with your decision. Again, I am willing to resolve this if you simply refund my money, at which point I will immediately mail your knife back to you. If not I will be following up with BladeForums, PayPal, my bank, and my attorney tomorrow. I truly hope you decide to refund the funds as it will certainly save both you and me further time and frustration.

Sellers/Selling -
Be 100% sure that you want to sell the item, have it in your possession and clearly list the selling price. There is no "testing the waters" or "gauge buyer interest".
Activate/Enable your ability to receive email and private messaging, from members, moderators, and administrators; you must display your correct membership level.
Be honest and provide an accurate & detailed description of the item. Don't forget to mention defects, blemishes, new, used, or other problems. When in doubt, be pessimistic with your descriptions.
Provide as many photos as possible, in the best lighting possible. It's always nice for buyers to see what they are going to get.
Be specific with all details of payment. There is no eBay style auctioning allowed. If you want to entertain trade offers, say so in your sales thread (For Sale Or Trade); it is allowed.
If you have a Gold or higher membership you may list currently active threads in your signature. Please, no giant billboards and no links to eBay.
Consolidate your threads. If you have multiple knives to sell, post them in a single thread. Or you can do different threads on different days. You are only allowed 1 sales thread, per day, per forum. Let's keep it fair for everyone.
You must wait 14 days (2 weeks) to relist an item.


His response:

Nothing in this transaction has been misrepresented. The pictures were posted to ensure that. If u read the post it specifically said " original owner said it was new," BUT there are some minor scratches. In regards to it being left handed, again, the pictures do not lie. You have already agreed to that statement in a prior email.

As per delivery, u used the term priority mail, which is the method I paid for thru usps. Your delivery address was incorrect on both your paypal account and the emails sent. When u realized your mistake and informed me, I tried my best to re route to no avail. I also refunded your shipping fee even tho all this was your doing! The original incorrect tracking number is irrelevant. U were given the correct number in a timely manner.

What this all boils down to is that u agreed to purchase this knife. The posted pictures r that of the knife u received. There was no deception or misrepresentation.

Finally, I believe that you saw the knife brand name and made a hasty decision to purchase because of the reasonable asking price. "Thx for not marking the knife up insanely" were your exact words. U seem like a nice guy and I'm sorry it's come to this. Just sell it if u r unhappy. I honestly thought it was a very nice knife. Tough and well made, just too small for my liking. What about sending it for a "spa" treatment?

Good Luck

Chris


This was my last communication with the seller. Several days later I did however hear from another member here, Keith, who guys by Gizmoman on BF. Keith was interested in purchasing the CF from me as he was on the hunt for one and I just beat him out on the sale. I responded that I would be more than happy to sell him the CF but that he should be aware it was a lefty. I won't post the emails that followed but I will paraphrase Keith's response (Keith please step in if I misrepresent anything), which was essentially "What!? why would someone sell a $775 knife without mentioning that vital fact?! You should reach out to the mods ASAP, this is not the way things are done on BF."

I let Keith know how much I appreciated his concern regarding what happened. I was also impressed with his loyalty to the community, as he was obviously outraged that an experience like this had been my first experience on BF. I followed his advice and reached out to Ryan (Rycen) who told me that I had handled the situation properly and that he would follow up with the seller. Ryan exchanged PM's with the seller and told him that on BF a transaction is not complete until both buyer and seller are happy and that he should refund my money. I am not privy to the details of their communication but Ryan informed me that the seller essentially refused to do so. At that point he advised me to post a thread here, which brings us to now.

I'm interested to hear what the community here thinks of all of this, but ultimately what I need is my money refunded, so to that end I'd like to address Mmawannabe one more time: Chris, please do the right thing here and refund my money. You didn't adequately describe the item you sold me and you have now heard the same from the mods on this forum. I will send your knife back to you immediately upon receiving the refund and this entire unpleasant incident can be completely put behind us. I will even request that mods close this thread as I have no desire for this to continue any longer than needed or to effect your reputation.

Thanks for your time guys. Special shout out to Keith (Gizmoman) and Ryan (Rycen) for their help and espescially for showing me that BF is a community with lots of honest, concerned folks. I was pretty disillusioned with BF after what happened and both of these guys went to bat for the community in a big way.

And also, anyone want to buy a LEFTY CF? Hit me up

Best,

Dave

 

[choombak]

The way the seller is emphasised the "abundantly clear" pictures, and used it as an excuse for accurate description of the knife is poor form, IMHO. A am yet to come across a listing where the lefty nature was not listed. This tx is should be undone and you deserve a full refund.

 

[jbmonkey]

I'm kinda amazed this seller won't just give your money back. Its a no brainer and the right thing to do as far as forum rules and ethics. Id like to hear his reasoning other than he posted pictures and the too bad so sad I seem to be reading in his email responses to you.

 

[oharal]

Nobody did well here. Yes the seller probably should've said "left handed" but he's right the pictures are there. If it were my money (big money for a Crusader Forge, yes?) and I saw the pic, I sure as sugar wouldn't ASSUME (make an a** of u and me) it was right handed. I would certainly have asked for clarification. Good business is of course to work to ensure the customer is happy so since you are not pleased a refund is rightly in order. However it is important to keep in mind that you made a colossal screw up as well. Unfortunately when you do something like this to yourself buying on the web you subject yourself to the mercy of regular people (i.e. not business people who might be more inclined to go out of the way to help you). Next time you should exercise much more discretion. I hope you two are able to come to an agreement that pleases both parties.

 

[Ruzster]

Personally, I don't believe I've ever seen a lefty for sale that wasn't STATED as such in the sale description. Seems like a stretch of the "accurate description" requirement to make the the buyer responsible for figuring that out from the pic alone. Heck, if that's the case, wouldn't it make sense to just do away with written descriptions all together as long as the seller posts some pics. Also, with respect to sales, I thought it was a BF rule of thumb (let alone just good member etiquette) that no deal is final unless BOTH the buyer and the seller are satisfied with the outcome. In this case, the buyer has even offered to ship it back on his dime and wannabe can just start the process over with no financial consequence short of the loss of the sale (as opposed to his reputation). It's not to late for him to do the right thing but, IMHO, if mwawannabe doesn't make this right, maybe he needs to become a BF wannabe. Of course, YMMV.

 

[fishface5]

Definitely you hold some responsibility for pulling the trigger before looking at the pics thoroughly. On the other hand, the only 2 reasons not to mention the critical fact that it's a lefty in the post are either (1) lazines, or (2) hoping that someone won't notice and then it will become their problem to dispose of a less-marketable knife. Neither of those are acceptable conduct on BF.

 

[Misanthropia]

I guarantee his reluctance to refund the money is because it is already all gone, such is the dangerous temptation of immediate payment through paypal. But in reality, I can't see why anyone wouldn't just give the refund, is $800 (I'm sure very little of which is profit) really worth the hassle of completely ruining your reputation here?

 

[NCCNC]

I hope the OP gets his money back. There were wrongs made by both parties in this particular situation, however as many have already pointed out....blade forums rules dictate that a sale isnt final until both parties are satisfied. I personally dont even transfer money from paypal to my bank accoout until the buyer is satisfied, because there is always the chance it will have to be refunded. Description is KEY in a sale. I sometimes worry that a knife wont sale because I say so many negative nitpicking things about it in the description. I want a buyer to be as well informed as possible, and hopefully suprised when it arrives, because it is in better shape than anticipated.

 

[Lone_Wolfe]

He should refund the money, but not on your terms. If it were me, I'd tell you to return the knife, THEN I'd refund the money. You don't have nearly the reputation established for me to think of doing it your way.

 

[stonesell]

I have three framelocks, and I would not have recognized that it was a left-handed model from the photos alone. I had to compare it with my ZT0550 to understand the difference. I don't belive that all knife collectors are framelock savvy, in this regard.

 

[jeepin]

I have three framelocks, and I would not have recognized that it was a left-handed model from the photos alone. I had to compare it with my ZT0550 to understand the difference. I don't belive that all knife collectors are framelock savvy, in this regard.

If you couldn't tell that was a lefty from the pics, then I am sorry to say but it's time for you to get some glasses

 

[stonesell]

If you couldn't tell that was a lefty from the pics, then I am sorry to say but it's time for you to get some glasses

I do have glasses, but sometimes things look reversed to me in a photo. I also reverse the last 2 numbers at times; perhaps a bit of dyslexia, or trying to go too fast.

 

[jeepin]

I do have glasses, but sometimes things look reversed to me in a photo. I also reverse the last 2 numbers at times; perhaps a bit of dyslexia, or trying to go too fast.

Ok. Understood.

 

[RevDevil]

There is the same amount of responsibility on the buyer to ask as many questions as they need to, as it is for the seller to accurately represent the item, period. This is why you need to post accurate and re cent photos that are well lit and focused. I've sent the seller a PM asking him to reverse the deal.

 

[DShahriari]

All, thanks for the input.

To everyone that pointed out that I am at fault for not looking at the photos more closely - you are absolutely 100% right. Frankly I am embarrassed that I let this slip by me and in no way am I trying to put all of the blame on the seller. That said it was an honest mistake and I have owned it. Now all I'm asking is for the seller to own his part here and do what is clearly the consensus from the community- refund the money.

Still no word from him. I will certainly keep you all posted. Thanks again.

 

[Maprik]

He should refund the money, but not on your terms. If it were me, I'd tell you to return the knife, THEN I'd refund the money. You don't have nearly the reputation established for me to think of doing it your way.

I agree with LW. Chris should allow you to send the knife back for a refund. After he receives it he should refund your payment. I think that a left handed knife should be clearly identified in the title or first sentence of an ad. People don't always look at pics that closely to realize a knife is a lefty...

 

[Metal Made Fox]

I'm kind of neutral on the subject here. If I'm going to be shelling out that much dollar for a product then I sure as Hell am going to be inspecting every little detail of the pictures, and maybe even ask for some more! I think you are definitely at fault here for overlooking such an obvious and important detail when it was right there in front of you. It's kind of like if I buy a knife thinking it's a plain edge but then upon arrival realize it is a combo edge because I failed to examine the pics properly.

However, I suppose that no deal is complete without both parties being satisfied. And regardless the seller should have stated that it was a LEFTY no matter what.

So, I suppose that it would be the right thing for mmawannabe to refund you. However, I agree with the people who say that you should return the knife FIRST and then receive the refund. No offense but you only have 4 posts here and no established reputation. And this is a bit of an unbelievable story. How do we know you're not trying to pull a fast one here? So, it would be fair and right for you to return the knife first in the condition you received it of course.

 

[Ernie1980]

Since there will be a lack of trust by both parties at this point, why not ship it to a mod? It will cost more because it will be shipped twice, but the money could be refunded when it reaches the mod and then would be shipped to the OP after shipping money is provided by the buyer. Safer for everyone involved

 

[TOMBSTONE]

Well besides the fact we go by the deal.isn't done till both parties are happy, I would say that leaving out that it's a lefty version out of the description is a big oversight. I don't care what pictures you have posted up that's a big detail not to mention. And to refuse a reversal or having spent the money before insuring the other party is good with the purchase is just foul business.

 

[SaintlyBrees]

Not mentioning it is a lefty is poor etiquette, pictures notwithstanding. Pulling the ole, "but the guy I bought it from said" schtick says volumes about someone's intent, IMHO. I won't buy anything from anyone when their method of describing something is to fall back on someone else's words. That is a setup in the making. I've seen that done too many times elsewhere. And the reply, "I said exactly what I was told by original owner on bf" is exactly what always follows. Very poor form.

If one is going to do business here, one needs to follow forum rules. Forum rules state that both sides must be happy. Time to undo the deal. That simple.