MN laws?

Background, from the only case law presented:
On Monday, November 2, 1998 the lead teacher of the school, Waneta Hord, and several students conducted a routine contraband search. A student brought a coat to Hord reporting a knife in the coat pocket. Hord brought the coat into the nearest classroom, displayed the coat and asked who owned it. Appellant immediately identified the coat as his but when asked by Hord what was in the coat pocket, he said that he did not know. Hord told him that a knife was found in his pocket and removed a folding knife with a four-inch blade. Appellant responded, “Oh man, I forgot to take it out, I was whittling this weekend.” In accordance with school procedure upon finding serious contraband, Hord called the police and retained possession of the knife until the police confiscated it.

Anoka County Police Sergeant Hammes responded to the call from the school and after investigation appellant was charged with violating Minn.Stat. § 609.66, subd. 1d, which makes possession of a dangerous weapon on school property a felony level offense. At trial, Hord testified that when she asked who owned the jacket, appellant immediately responded “I do” and was very cooperative throughout all of her questioning. She also testified that when she pulled the knife out and appellant said he had been whittling, his reaction was “spontaneous” and “believable.” Sergeant Hammes testified that appellant admitted that the knife was his, and that the day before he had been whittling with the knife *804 and had put it in his coat pocket but forgot to take it out. Appellant also told Sergeant Hammes that before coming to school on Monday he patted himself down but missed the knife. Appellant's mother told the court that appellant had on a “double jacket” that morning so even though he patted himself down, he could not feel the knife. A probation officer also told the court there was no evidence that appellant brought the knife to school to get into a fight. The court concluded, “I don't know that I believe that [appellant] was whittling. I believe he brought it accidentally.”

After testimony from Horn and Hammes appellant moved for a directed verdict,FN2 arguing that any reasonable interpretation of section 609.66, subd. 1d, would require appellant to know that the knife was in his coat pocket and that general intent required knowledge of possession. The prosecutor responded that the statute does not require knowledge or intent because it creates a strict liability crime-the state need only show appellant possessed a dangerous weapon on school grounds.

In Minnesota, the distinction between strict liability crimes and those requiring a mens rea has been recognized in both our case law and statutes; for example and relevant here, is Minn.Stat. § 609.02, subd. 9 (1998), providing definitions for chapter 609 offenses:

(1) When criminal intent is an element of a crime in this chapter, such intent is indicated by the term “intentionally,” the phrase “with intent to,” the phrase “with intent that,” or some form of the verbs “know” or “believe.”

(2) “Know” requires only that the actor believes that the specified fact exists.

(3) “Intentionally” means that the actor either has a purpose to do the thing or cause the result specified or believes that the act performed by the actor, if successful, will cause that result. In addition * * * the actor must have knowledge of those facts which are necessary to make the actor's conduct criminal and which are set forth after the word “intentionally.”

(4) “With intent to” or “with intent that” means that the actor either has a purpose to do the thing or cause the result specified or believes that the act, if successful, will cause that result.

Minn.Stat. § 609.02, subd. 9. While we have not yet ruled whether under this statute a chapter 609 offense must be interpreted as a strict liability crime where it contains no language indicating intent or knowledge, in several opinions we have ruled on whether mere “possession” in various contexts requires a mens rea. In State v. Siirila, we affirmed a conviction under Minn.Stat. § 618.02 (1969), which stated “it shall be unlawful for any person to * * * possess * * * any narcotic drug” where appellants had an unusable quantity of marijuana. 292 Minn. 1, 10, 193 N.W.2d 467, 473 (1971). We observed that the legislature had reduced the crime of possession of a small amount of marijuana from a felony to a gross misdemeanor, see id. at 7, 193 N.W.2d at 471, and concluded

the inference is permissible that, marijuana having been found in a jacket shown to belong to defendant and to have been worn by him, whatever was in the jacket was there with his knowledge. The element of knowledge need not be proved from direct testimony, but may be shown by circumstantial evidence.

Id. at 10, 193 N.W.2d at 473. Later, in State v. Florine, we held that the defendant was guilty under Minn.Stat. § 152.09, subd. 1(2) (1974), of the felony offense of unlawful possession of cocaine, but noted “to convict a defendant of unlawful possession of a controlled substance, the state must prove that defendant consciously possessed * * * the substance and that defendant*808 had actual knowledge of the nature of the substance.” 303 Minn. 103, 104, 226 N.W.2d 609, 610 (1975).

Again in State v. Strong, we held that Minn.Stat. § 243.55 (1978 & Supp.1979), which provided “[a]ny person who brings * * * into any state correctional facility * * * any firearms, weapons or explosives of any kind * * * shall be guilty of a felony” required the state to show that the defendant had knowledge of possession of the offensive item. 294 N.W.2d 319, 320 n. 1 (Minn.1980). Because this was not a chapter 609 offense, we specifically declined to address whether section 609.02 cited above dispensed with proof of a mens rea in a chapter 609 offense absent words of intent. See id. at 320. We did observe however, that “most commentators have argued that the legislature should never use strict liability for crimes carrying a sentence of imprisonment and the moral condemnation going with such crimes.” Id. (citing Wayne R. LaFave and Austin W. Scott, Jr., Criminal Law, § 31 at 218, 223 (1972)). We concluded:

We see no reason why the element of scienter should be dispensed with in this situation and we are not convinced that the legislature intended to do so, any more than it intended to dispense with the requirement of scienter when it enacted the penalties for felonious possession of controlled substances.

Id.

From the actual opinion:
FN14. We express a note of concern regarding the court of appeals' comment that the statute was a strict liability offense because of the mild penalty imposed on appellant. The fact that appellant received a light sentence is of no consequence in the determination of whether mens rea is required under the statute because obviously the state's burden of proof of guilt cannot be determined by the level of sentence the trial court later imposes.

Thus we conclude that in light of our jurisprudential history requiring clear legislative intent to dispense with proof of mens rea and our heightened concern when it relates to felony level crimes, and because we believe the nature of the weapon here-a knife-was not so inherently dangerous that appellant should be on notice that mere possession would be a crime, respondent was required to prove that appellant knew he possessed the knife on school property as an element of the section 609.66, subd. 1d, offense charged. FN15

FN15. The special concurrence obviously misreads and overstates the majority holding when it suggests that we are creating a new standard requiring the legislature to explicitly state its intent to create strict liability offenses in all felony level crimes.

We reverse the court of appeals decision and remand to the trial court to determine whether appellant had knowledge of possession of the knife while on school property.

Reversed.

In re the Welfare of CRM has very little to do with whether or not the knife itself was a dangerous weapon, but rather with whether or not the dangerous weapon statute was one of strict liability or one in which mens rea was applicable. If you note, the Minn. Supreme Court did reverse the verdict, and remanded the case back to the court of original jurisdiction, for retrial- presumably to apply mens rea- as to whether he was knowingly carrying the weapon. I also found the not such a dangerous weapon comment (I highlighted it) interesting. Would they have considered the knife a dangerous weapon at all in a less secure situation (not a school) setting? I wonder....

From the wording of the statute, it is clear that there is an intentional levelof ambiguity applied, leaving much up to LE and judicial interpretation.

[ /COLOR]
 
Reffy, do your fingers not type what you want them to, or is it impossible for you to put words together in a coherent manner?
 
Please do not refer to me as uneducated. I suppose I will explain some of my analysis, if it will retain my reputation or even just grant you all a better understanding of how I do this.
When we have a supreme court laying down 5-4 decisions and effectively changing what is illegal do you really think it is truly clear what is legal and illegal. Now think about knife carry laws. Although you describe it as "critical" it is surely not, and exists very much without solidification. As such I have looked at nearby states, and the only recent case law pertaining to knife carry in the state. I've done this for nearly all states and have a great wealth of knowledge of trends within the court system. Have you? Do you?
For instance. Why did I include those local ordinances? Well local ordinances have often been used, in MN and in other states (not necessarily regarding weapons carry) in cases dealing with law that has little precedent or is vague. For instance, the language "Deadly weapon" is very vague. So, how would one define "deadly weapon." Often times, they will look to how the ordinances within the state that define a deadly weapon. If that is not satisfactory they will look to other states, and how they define deadly weapons. By looking at past decisions regarding precedent I can determine just how relevant those ordinances and out of state law is in the particular state being questioned.
Sometimes if it truly not clear how those who sit in judgment will behave I will even go so far as to look up some of the different judges to see their case history. But I almost never have to do that.
After doing all of that I will come to conclusion. Which is, as stated, in no way infallible - but to my best estimation the most accurate portrayal of the legal system to you may face one day.

It seems I must apologize again for typos. I am doing this in haste and in the dark (my roommate is asleep). But with a little imagination (or maybe even some critical thinking! as one suggested) I'm sure you can piece together my dreadfully sculpted sentences. pfffffff
 
oops, sorry. I forgot what I was going to say....;)

Well then, can I now be done? Have I not proven that in fact I have done and will do the work necessary to come to an educated conclusion? It seems to me that only MP510 has an actual concept of practical legal analysis.
 
If nothing else, you've finally managed to write a post without stringing together meaningless clause after meaningless clause with cutesy non-standard syntax like you're trying to write for an encyclopedia or something.

This is a message board where conversations are held, and I keep expecting you to break out the royal "we" in between your rambling per se's and forthwiths.
 
I suppose I will call up my mother and ask her to enroll me in grammar school. The man on the forums does not approve my of writing. and for the record I used "per se" once, when it was necessary, and forthwith never.

But I do appreciate the kind word.

I do not like getting in these kinds of arguements. But I find it difficult not to defend myself when my character is attacked...even on a forum. I can't say that I enjoy being called "uneducated" by a food service director. I've provided nothing but sound legal argument. You've provided nothing but insults and immaturity. My god. Are you really that pompous? You really think you're right in this one dont you? If you were a legal scholar or had any sort of worth while credentials I would gladly listen to your analysis. But it is clear that you have none. Instead you have a simpleton upstanding of the law. That's fine. The law is overly complicated and that is one of it's down falls, this is why we have lawyers. But do not insult me because of it. Be on your way sir, I have no stomach for this kind of bestial discussion.
 
Excuse me? What the hell am I talking about? Can I stop making a fool of myself?

Sure.

I'm also a Boston Legal student.

Yeah, I don't like that show.

As such I do feel somewhat qualified providing these answers. If not completely or overly qualified, surely qualified enough for an Internet forum.

Not here, foo. We gots da mad brains!

I think I deserve an apology.

I think you deserve this:
 
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Well then, can I now be done? Have I not proven that in fact I have done and will do the work necessary to come to an educated conclusion? It seems to me that only MP510 has an actual concept of practical legal analysis.

actually, you have proven nothing but you are pretty darn clueless.

:D
 
This is interesting:

- Section 609.66. Dangerous weapons.
Subdivision 1.
Acts prohibited. Whoever does any of the following is
guilty of a crime... (4) manufactures, transfers, or
possesses metal knuckles or a switch blade knife opening
automatically; or
(5) possesses any other dangerous article or substance
for the purpose of being used unlawfully as a weapon
against another
...

So basically, if I'm walking around with a "dangerous weapon" that does not violate some other aspect of the penal code (such as 609.66 subdivision 1 (4)), and I'm doing it with the intent of self defense (which is always legal, right?) then that "dangerous weapon" should be legal.

I have a close relative in Minnesota who has a hell of a lot of trial experience in that state (he's a public defender for one of the metropolitan counties, and he has literally decades of experience with the MN legal system). I'll give him a call tonight and see if I can get him to shed some light on MN's knife laws, so as to answer the OP.

That is, if he isn't caught up in another trial. He does get grouchy when he has to go to trial....
 
The law is overly complicated and that is one of it's down falls, this is why we have lawyers. But do not insult me because of it. Be on your way sir, I have no stomach for this kind of bestial discussion.

yes, one can only hope they have a bit more logical acumen than you my friend. if not, we are definitely in trouble.

Bestial? have you been in 'that other place' again??
 
info only, the switchblade section in california (pc 653g) has language that includes balis.

so, concluding from the mn section that balis are in any way illegal is a tremendous leap of faith.
 
Considering how far off topic this thread has gotten, I figure a summary might be of help to the original poster:

1. Statewide, the only restricted items are autos and Brass Knuckles. There is not a state blade length limit.

2. Local ordinances may vary, Find out these regulations for yourself, by contacting the local district attorney.

3. Disregard everything Reffy says.
 
Sec. 225.01. Definitions. St. Paul City Ordinance (Minnesota)
Knife shall mean dirk, dagger, stiletto, switchblade knife, spring blade knife, push button knife, a folding knife with a blade in excess of four (4) inches, [/B][/B]a machete, a bayonet, or any fixed-blade knife, carried in a concealed manner or within reach of any person in a motor vehicle.
 
Sec. 225.01.
Knife shall mean dirk, dagger, stiletto, switchblade knife, spring blade knife, push button knife, a folding knife with a blade in excess of four (4) inches, a machete, a bayonet, or any fixed-blade knife, carried in a concealed manner or within reach of any person in a motor vehicle.
 
info only, the switchblade section in california (pc 653g) has language that includes balis.

so, concluding from the mn section that balis are in any way illegal is a tremendous leap of faith.

Not that much of a leap actually. Often times in states such as MN that have broad based bans of "dangerous weapons" and the like balis have fallen under the statutory switchblade prohibition. While not specifically prohibited under state law there are also many local ordinances. But I am not so worried about these ordinances, simply that these ordinances will provide reason to hold a bali as an auto or as a weapon carried with the intent to injure another. This comes more from my general knowledge of state law rather than specific instances...but off the top of my head and without confirmation um, certainly Kansas, maine, my own state mass, and I seem to recall Illinois all tend to subscribe to this philosophy. It is truly unfortunate. Not sure about illinois
After discussing this matter with a colleague of mine he pointed out that a David Wong, practicing lawyer with a specialty in weapons carry and author of "Knife Laws of the Fifty States", agrees with this analysis. That includes the analysis on balisongs. Admittedly it is somewhat paranoid and cautious, but there is good reason to act cautiously. As always the individual must weigh the risks. I hope that helps morimotom.

But then again, maybe the two people with actual legal knowledge and education are wrong. Maybe the graphic designer and foodservice director have a more thorough understanding of the law than myself as they have so confidently asserted. We all have our speciality gentlemen. I know I've never been good at either drawing or cooking.
 
I seem to recall Illinois all tend to subscribe to this philosophy. It is truly unfortunate. Not sure about illinois
There was a case in Illinois that looked at the question of whether Assissted Opening knives met the legal definition of a switchblade, and as I recall, it was ruled in favor of the accused. However, I believe that it was a dismissal, rather than an appellate ruling, so, obviously, that case does not set any precedent. Could that be the case you were thinking of? When I have more time, I'll check WestLaw.
 
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