Model 10 from R. W. Clark in Liquid Metal (LM1)

Originally posted by R.W.Clark
Here is a photo of the same blade bent to 98 degrees. It is wrapped around my grinders contact wheel. That was as tight as I could get the quick grips to go. Absolulty no damage and it rebounded dead straight.
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Nice picture indeed. I am wondering whether you could do the same with similar piece of Talonite?

David
 
Originally posted by V Shrake
Now I know why I rarely, if ever, waste my time at Bladeforums. Geez.
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Shame that you feel you've wasted your time here. Please, don't feel the need to continue.

Alternatively, there is a feature in "User CP" where you can add various posters to your "Ignore List" to enhance your experience here. Add Cliff, see how you feel, then add me.
 
Add me too, and I'll be sure to reciprocate. It's a shame we've been missing your valuable 'input' all this time.
 
Originally posted by V Shrake
Which brings up an interesting point: why does ANYONE listen to ANYTHING Cliff has to say? As was pointed out in this thread, Cliff's sole purpose in his "testing" is to prove how macho he is by breaking knives. Persoanlly, I've always been more interested in *using* my knives, than abusing them and asking for another because I was too stupid to use it properly in the first place. And I truly have to question the sanity of anyone that would send Cliff a knife in the first place.
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With all due respect, if you've read all of Cliff's reviews on his site, and still think all he does is break knives, I'd question your reading skills. While there's a lot of knife breaking and edge crumbling going on, there's also a lot of information about how different materials (both blade and cutting materials) and geometries effect cutting ability. I'd go so far as to say that even if you ignored all parts of the reviews that seemed to be aimed at testing breaking tolerances, you would still be left with an unparalled wealth of information about how and why knives work.

I understand how you might ignore the parts you think are irrelevant (some of the tolerance testing), but not why anyone would dismiss all the rest.

Joe
 
Originally posted by R.W.Clark
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...If you set out to break a knife (which is Cliffs goal) the warrantee is void. Period, end of subject.
Those people, who are attempting to break your junker aren't they falling under category of those who are "set out to break it"? Youare offering a free blade after all, I am sure they'll try real hard.

The bet is not an advertised thing. I bring it up when a potential customer questions the fragility of LM1 at a show.
I think this was the same case. LM1 fragility was quastioned, he made a statement, which you dismissed as "Highly doubtfull", apparently based on your experience with this alloy and your confidence in this material.
If the test is videotaped then it is only about 2 hands, and IMHO has nothing to do with abusers. I mean the way you made it sound, it's like Cliff was going to break that blade using a sledgehammer. On the contrary, he clearly stated he was going to use his hands and gloves (which you already do at the shows) and if he can't break it he'd post the results here as well.

I think it's fair. Of course it's your knife and your bets, and you do as U wish.
 
I just took a few moments to look over Cliffs site. Only looked at the reviews for a few fixed blades. Mostly was looking at the reviews of a Busse and a near identical Busse clone. Saw a few problems that I think I should point out.

First the edges of the Busse and the Clone were only 0.001 apart in edge thickness (and the Busse is thicker). But in the reviews Cliff states that this is the ideal performace edge for the Busse, but then states that it is to thick for the clone.

Second, they both sport Kydex carry rigs. Both are clamshell style. Cliff only mentions the good points of the Busse rig (ie no rattle, good retention, and nice leg loop). But in the review of the clone Cliff clearly states that he dislikes Kydex for its low durability in heat extremes. Why was this "negative" not mentioned in the Busse review.

Based on the reviews that I read, it would seem to be very clear that there is a blatant bias involved in Cliffs review methods.

When there is a clear bias, there can not be sound science. All findings by the biased reviewer are void until confirmed by several other parties.

It is clear that Cliff does have a bais towards certain knives and or companies (playing Busse up and marking other knives down for the same exact features for example), therefore his "science" would be discarded by any reputable reviewer.

But don't take my word for it. Go to Cliffs site and start comparing the reviews side by side for yourself.

Like I said, Cliff is a bad joke with no punchline.


Edited to fix a decimal point typo.
 
Gator, if I bought a new car and took it to a crash test lab and had them wreck it, that would void the factory (and aftermarket) warrentees. This is inspite of the fact that they crash them themselves.

I did not sell the knife to Cliff nor did I ask him to perform the "testing". I assume no liability for what happens to the knife during the testing procedures. Gaben gave the knife to Cliff fully aware that it in all likely hood it would be damaged.
 
i think that cliff's testing has it's ups and downs. Personally I think his standards are way too high. He expects too much out of a knife, but thats his standards not mine. I find some of his posts to be informative as they do follow a somewhat logical and scientific method of testing these knives for various properties. My advice is if you like a knife buy it, some people may like it some people won't some people might think it's good some people won't.
 
I read Cliff's posts as asking what tests can be run that will not damage the knife (since it is borrowed) and will highlight any noteworthy performance characteristics of the design and materials. The high elasticity of the material and the ultra-fine grainless nature of the material don't fit well with his usual tests and rating criteria. It is difficult to examine the elastic limits if the blade is likely to break as soon as you reach the limit (rather than take a set). You can't safely sneak up on the limit by trying progressively greater stresses until it stops recovering. (I've seen this before with stainless steel). Most applications don't show much benefit for flexibility, they tend to do better with a stiffer blade.

I guess that I would like to see if Cliff could measure significantly higher thread cutting performance if he went all-out in sharpening this material. He has sort of brushed-off the idea of getting a finer edge. It is possible that there is something new to be observed with this amorphous solid if you really work on a fine edge. Since the material is sort of soft I would try stropping it with ferric oxide (jeweler's rouge) as one of the experiments. I would try working on it with hones and strops that are made for sharpening straight razors.

Anyone else have a practical suggestion of tests that can safely highlight unique features of this material?
 
There are tons of things that Cliff could do as non-damaging tests, IF he would play it straight. Cliff is known far and wide for giving positive reviews to his favorites and trashing those that don't lock step to his drum. To think that he would be any differant now is just plain silly.

He has already proven, to me at least, that he is not going to play straight on this review. By attacking my fit and finish right off the bat he has lost my support. Not becuase it is negative about me, but because it is not true. When that knife was packaged for shipping it had the highest degree of F+F possible and could shave (though not cleanly mind you, that is not how I set up my edges on LM1). And he claimed that it was NIB so that leaves out any other sources of the problems. As soon as I sounded off on this thread that Cliff was full of it, he found even more things wrong with the knife.

When I tried to explain to him how to approach a push cut with LM1, he twisted what I said to make it sound like it was somehow a negative. He plays as a materials expert in regaurds to LM1. This material boggles Phds. I don't even pretend to begin to understand all of its workings and thats with the scientists sitting and trying to explain it to me first hand.

If Cliffs reviews were really worth while, you better believe that they would be picked up by any of the current knife mags. As it sits, he has to give this junk away and you get what you pay for.

So if anyone still buys Cliffs BS, even after reading through the four other independant reviews of performance, I will open my shop again to any comers who want to try a LM1 knife first hand. After a day of cutting they are free to say whatever they feel is fair in a review. My Model 10 tester is still up somewhere above Yosemite, but I should have it back in about a week. And I still have Model 6 and Model 1 testers on hand. I will even spring for as much cardboard as you can cut.

Edited to add:

No, flexing does not really provide any performance perks. Its just an example of the strange characteristics of this material. It also disproves any statements that an amorphic material must be brittle. Although I personally prefer a blade that will give a little instead of being overly stiff. That is for the purpose of a EDC. For other applications stiffer blades would be preferable. But then there are alot of times when a knife with more mass is also to be prefered. It just depends upon the specific application.
 
While reading through this page of threads, it seems that Mr. Stamp has schooled Bob Dozier and the Crucible Steel folks on how D2 steel should be heat treated, schooled Ed Fowler on forging and heat treating 52100 as well as proper blade geometery, is explaining the real material science of liquid metal to Mr. Clark, as well as giving some pointers on proper fit and finish of a knife.

Not bad for 5 days work, and it took those other guys (never mind they are recognized experts in their field) many years.

Mr. Clark,

You comments on Mr. Stamp's obvious bias is spot on. Just look for the last time he mentioned a certain maker's quality control problems (when that company has been plauged with many well publicized problems on the forums, both quality control and customer service) and how quick he is to find it in others.

I guess some makers get a different standard than others.

I wonder how Mr. Stamp measures the force of his cuts? Does he uses standardized instruments? Or is he doing it freehand, just guessing? Maybe using a walmart bathroom scale.

Mr.V-Shrake,

His so-called "testing" is a joke, as has been proven time and again. Amazingly enough, all of his testing seems to lead to the same conclusion: the only "good" knife is a Busse, of whatever *flavor* is currently in season.
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This bias of Mr. Stamp's seems to come up over and over again.

Also Mr. Shrake,
I have read several of your articles in the old American Survival Guide, and your most recent on-line publishing (easy to find with a google search), it is great reading.

Refreshing to see some real world perspective. I notice you don't chop concrete, or pry open airplanes. Funny thing, I bet you actually use your knives to cut.
 
R.W.Clark:

It (flexability) is just an example of the strange characteristics of this material. It also disproves any statements that an amorphic material must be brittle.
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No. Flexability is not the opposite of brittleness. Flexability in no way proves or disproves any statment about the brittleness of lm1.

Here is some basic educational material on these terms.

Flexability is the opposite of stiffness.
Ductility (aka toughness) is the opposite of brittleness.
 
So, then, digger1, how would you improve on Cliff Stamp's methods? Can you provide specific examples of how you would do so, while providing a method of quantifying the results? Have you provided anything that even remotely comes close to what Cliff Stamp has contributed (as a reviewer), and have you put in as much time/money?

I'm pretty new around here, but why is Cliff Stamp held to a higher standard than any other reviewer? He does this thing, you read it, you draw your own conclusions, no different from any other review. If you're unable to draw your own conclusions, than perhaps you'd be better off not reading them at all.

Hi R.W. Clark,

I was wondering what niche this might fill in the market, if it is ever used in quantity? I've read the other thread, and you've said that it's already been used to make golf clubs and scalpels, it's non-magnetic, it's very flexible, it's very wear resistant, and can be cast. While it probably provides some interesting opportunities to manufacturers, what kind of knife would it provide to the user? :confused: Or is it just too early to tell? It sounds kinda like Talonite, aside from the casting thing, so might it provide a Talonite-like knife at lower prices?
 
So, then, digger1, how would you improve on Cliff Stamp's methods?
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By removing his faltered attempt at science. His reviews are as biased and opinionated as any I have read. But, instead of admitting to being subjective, Mr. Stamp couches his reviews with misplaced scientific terms and B.S. statistics. He also makes broad claims about materials, of which he has no real knowledge. His reviews also have little real world application. I would much rather read how well a knife cuts open feed bags, whittles tent spikes, picks a splinter from under your skin, cleansd small game, prepares a meal, spreads peanut butter etc, instead of "the knife seprate the matter of the quantum substrate using 123 gigga foot pounds of force applied along a linear axis" (not a real quote, but may as well be.)

For crying out loud, it is a knife. A sharpened hunk of steel. People have been using them for thousands of years.

My family is farmers. They all carry knives, they have been cleaning fish and hogs for generations and didn't realize that their knives were sharpened to the wrong included angle and they were using the wrong steel. Forget that they had been doing it all their lives and it worked fine.



Can you provide specific examples of how you would do so, while providing a method of quantifying the results?
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Well, if I was ewver going to write a knife review, I would just use a knife and wrote about what I did with it, for stuff that I usually sue a knife for. IF you have to come up with salt baths and concrete chopping to test a knife, you might want to re-consider what a knife is for.

Have you provided anything that even remotely comes close to what Cliff Stamp has contributed (as a reviewer)
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Nope. Mr. Stamp has contributed far more mayhem, discontent, bias, misinformation, ass-kissing, Bullcrap, arguments, unfounded assertions, and has ran down the life's work of more makers than I could ever hope to.

Of course, I have only been a member for a couple days, give me some time.

and have you put in as much time/money?
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No, I have a real life, a real job and a family to support.

Further, how much money you spend don't mean squat. I have a ten year old Swiss Army knife and a Old kitchen knife from Old Hickory that will outcut just about every high dollar custom knife I have ever seen. Together they may be worth $6. I don't feel cheated or wanting.
 
"It sounds kinda like Talonite, aside from the casting thing, so might it provide a Talonite-like knife at lower prices?"

To put it in a nut shell, that is the basic idea. However it does have some bonuses over Talonite. Better edge retention, based on the side by side cutting tests I have done. Greater flexablitly. While not overly important it does imply that LM1 will be suitable for larger blades (that is a bit off though). It also has improved impact resistance in chopping. While the blades tested were not ideal for chopping (too light), the LM1 blade will survive heavy chopping and even batoning. In the video with Rinaldi, I went through a 2X4 four times with no edge damage and it still sliced paper. Lastly, due to its amorphic structure it will not fatigue over time as Talonite would. That is not to say this is really a problem with Talonite.

Given the size restrictions we currently have to play with the applications right now are rather limited. There are two manufacturers working up folders designed for harsh enviros (salt water, chemical exposure etal). Another company is making prototypes for EOD and other specialized units. It does have a place in EDC, just as Talonite did. The problem now is that we are sharing a machine with another application. No other machines are availible and this one is just not set up for large volume molds. So we have a given volume that we can work with. That volume can be cast in any shape, but it can not be increased right now. Once other machines (or other casting methods) become availible the possible applications will really open up. These areas include large field knives, industrial cutting tools, kitchen and food prep.

Pretty much any field will soon be open to us. What areas do you think that a non-magnitic, non-rusting, ultra light wieght knife with above average edge holding would fit into? Wide open playing field.
 
THank you for the welcome Mr. Frank K. :) :) :) :)
I fell right at home already.
 
Sounds like I should be excited about this material, then. Would love to see some affordable production neck knives cast from this material someday.
 
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