Model 10 from R. W. Clark in Liquid Metal (LM1)

Rob Simonich :

The thing I really dont like about LM1 from a makers point of view is the low working temperature and the Be. in the matrix. I like being able to hog on Stellite and Talonite and not worry about ruining the material even if it gets red hot.

I was considering running this on a belt sander to reduce the angle - this is a problem then? Is the dust highly toxic? How hot can it get before it is softened, is it worse than a simple carbon steel after hardening?

-Cliff
 
Mr. Rdangerer
Posts by newbies are always quite revealing. And we lucked out and got digger1's first 6 of 6 posts right here in this thread. Digger1 busts out... nice work digger1. Your contributions are certainly ...

I ain't sure if you be meaning that for real or if you are just pulling my leg. If you are being for real, then thank you for the welcome. If you is just poking fun at me, then I don't thank you. But I hope you is being freindly and saying hi and such.


Mr. Cliff Stamp:

Out of the remaining knives, all except for a few broke under the described intended use of the knife, that can be debated in a few cases as the intended use of tactical / survivial knives varies widely.

Well, I don't know nothing about survival knives, but I been using knives since I was knee high to a june bug, mostly around the place, but lots in the woods too. My Pa been using knives his whole life and my Pappie did too. I ain't never seen them break a knife, and I seen them do lots of cutting and slicing. But that was work, not play tests. I reckon when a man is using a tool for real, he is careful with it and uses it with care. If you gotta pry something, get a stick, smash with wood or rock. Don't use your knife. I know all about digging, it is my life. I know that a knife makes a poor shovel. I can dig better with a stick than a knife.

I did break the tip off a knife once, it was a Buck knife, nice folder. I was playing this game where you throw the knife in the ground and make it stick, then walk to it. The tip hit a rock and bent, when I tried to make it straight it broke. When my Pa found how I broke it, he took it away and gave it to a neighbor boy and I didn't get another knife for a year. A year without a knife is a long time for a boy when you want one bad.

I learned my lesson from that, and been using knives for 25 years since then and never broke another knife. I guess you never learned a lesson like that or you would respect your tools a little more, I reckon you don't use them for work much, instead play testing. When you work with tools, you don't whack the edges with steel bars, use a pipe as a cheater bar to bend them, you don't soak them in salt water and not clean them, I ain't never seen a working man put his knife in a vice, smash them with an iron chain, or do any of that silly stuff. It may be fun in play testing, but in the real world, with real work, it ain't right, it is down right dangerous.

Around these parts, if you did that stuff with your knife, people would think you were out of your head.


Mr. Gator97:

There are over 100 knife reviews on my site, and Busses are around 20% or less. How is that "all about Busses" anyways?

I ain't out to start no quarel with you, I like your site right fine. Your pictures got lots of light, and your edges look real shiny. I especially like how the finish looks on all your knives, they look like a Chritmas catalog, all shiny and bright. MY knives don't stay that way, they get scratched up, and worn a bit. You're right you got lots of knives, probably got more knives than my car and trailer are worth put together. You are a luck man.

Most of them I've used at least once. Due to sheer number of knives I can't physically use all of them intensively, especially that my job is comp related.

Well there then, I didn't know I did not know that you used most of them, at least once. I figured since they look so pretty in the pictures, shiny and all, that they never got used. You're right you got lots of reviews, and you do an excellent job of describing the knives, and listing the specifications and materials. For using most of them, at least once, you also do a nice job of telling people how they perform.

You got all sorts of knives, damn if I had that many I'd open me a knfe store.

Yes, and first 6 messages from you are all in this thread, all flaming

Well, looks like #7 is too. I don't know why you call them flaming though, I don't cotton to men like that, I just ain't cut that way. Billy that shares my trailer with me is just a freind, those other rumors ain't true at all. I don't care what that no good Shelly said she though she saw. I don't even like show tunes.

Me:
I would much rather read how well a knife cuts open feed bags, whittles tent spikes, picks a splinter from under your skin, cleansd small game, prepares a meal, spreads peanut butter etc,

Mr. Cliff Stamp responded:
Those kinds of things are in there along with the stock testing.
Now that is a bit of a wiggle. I done read all your reviews on your site, and I didn't see one glop of peanut butter spread, not a single sandwich. No jelly either. I didn't see no feed bags opened, and never saw a tent peg, never saw a splinter picked or a rabbit, coon, possum or squirel cleaned. I saw you cut up some seal though, ain't never had no seal, but I bet its good with salt and pepper all floured up and fat fried in a milk gravy. County fried seal like.
 
Appreciate your taking the time to report your findings here, Cliff. Would be particularly interested in hearing what you're seeing under magnification as the edge degrades with use (I hesitate to say "dulls" because that sounds like an assumption that the edge behaves comparably to steel.) I'm guessing with this material, the edge may not roll, and might also expect some different behavior with regard to chipping ... ?

So far, it sounds like LM1 may be better suited to golf club heads than general cutlery. Seems ironic that, in both instances, my concern is with slicing.
 
Originally posted by ColoradoDave
So far, it sounds like LM1 may be better suited to golf club heads than general cutlery. Seems ironic that, in both instances, my concern is with slicing.
:D


Also, digger1 can't be for real... not with backwoods-hillbilly-BS quotes like this:
digger 1
I ain't sure if you be meaning that for real or if you are just pulling my leg. ...you is being freindly and saying hi and such.

... I been using knives since I was knee high to a june bug...
... My Pa been using knives his whole life and my Pappie did too.
... I can dig better with a stick than a knife.

... I was playing this game where you throw the knife in the ground and make it stick, then walk to it. ... When my Pa found how I broke it...

... Around these parts, if you did that stuff with your knife, people would think you were out of your head.

... I ain't out to start no quarel with you, I like your site right fine. Your pictures got lots of light, and your edges look real shiny.
... they look like a Chritmas catalog, all shiny and bright.
... probably got more knives than my car and trailer are worth put together. You are a luck man.

Well there then, I didn't know I did not know that you used most of them, at least once. I figured since they look so pretty in the pictures, shiny and all, that they never got used.

... I don't cotton to men like that, I just ain't cut that way. Billy that shares my trailer with me is just a freind, those other rumors ain't true at all. I don't care what that no good Shelly said she though she saw. I don't even like show tunes.

... Now that is a bit of a wiggle. I done read all your reviews on your site, and I didn't see one glop of peanut butter spread, not a single sandwich. No jelly either.

... never saw a splinter picked or a rabbit, coon, possum or squirel cleaned. I saw you cut up some seal though, ain't never had no seal, but I bet its good with salt and pepper all floured up and fat fried in a milk gravy. County fried seal like.

Digger1, here's aiming at you: me smell troll.

I think you are a troll.

Want to unveil your former alter-BF-ego for us anytime soon?

Larry? Tim? DeWeese?
 
Originally posted by rdangerer
:D


Also, digger1 can't be for real... not with backwoods-hillbilly-BS quotes like this:


Digger1, here's aiming at you: me smell troll.

I think you are a troll.

Want to unveil your former alter-BF-ego for us anytime soon?



……maybe he’s just been spending too much time cooped up in that trailer with his friend Billy? (don’t ask don’t tell)


I also think that maybe Mr. Digger1 needs to polish his knives a little more often if he wants them to look nice and shiny like the ones in the Christmas catalog. :eek:




- Frank
 
Cliff, with a sharp belt and light pressure heat wont be a problem, dunk in water after every pass and you will be ok. I think Ron stated that about 600 far. ruins the properties of the metal. It is quite easy to generate that much heat with a belt sander on a thin knife edge however.

Beryllium is bad bad stuff. But so is any heavy metal like Vanadium, Cobalt etc. Use a good mask and ventilate well, or if it scares the hell out of you just dont do it.
 
Cliff, do not take it above 350c. If it gets that hot it will start to crystalize and make the blade worthless. As Rob said, it gets hot fast. REAL FAST. Grinding on LM1 is a very slow process. Your best bet is to grind bare handed and dunk every few seconds. Also using nice fresh sharp belts will help keep the heat down. I use 50grt Cubitron belts and chuck them as soon as they loose any sharpness. The belts are still good for many other steel knives however. I can normally get about 5-6 knives out of a belt after it has been discarded for LM1.

Please take the heat issue to heart. I have gotten countless calls from guys saying that they had melted their blades. Being the "new guy" many of the old timers do not want to listen to what I have to say and just grind away like they do with normal metals. Then they come back and blame it on the material. To date I have ground well over 100 blades out of LM1 and know what I am talking about when it comes to this material. So please work it slow.

Considering your back ground you will understand the Be issue better than many. LM1 does contain 3% Be. However, unlike most metals LM1 is a chemical alloy not a mechanical alloy. The Be is locked into the molicule chemically and can only be seperated chemically. So no matter how fine the dust you will not be exposed to the Be. However, LM1 is a danger just as any metal and proper saftey measures should be taken.

The Be issue was looked at really hard before LM1 was approved for food proccessing and as a human implant.

As to testing, for arugments sake I am willing to take you at face value. Here is my deal. I am willing to work with you throughout your tests. I will provide any input asked. I will even go as far as to say that if the knife does break under normal usage I will either repair or replace it. I will also repair any minor cosmetic damage caused during said usage. If however you chose to alter the knife or exceed my suggested limits, you are on your own.

What I would expect out of the knife in question.

No less than 500lf of 1/4 cardboard by push cutting.
Chopping both hard and soft woods. Although you have your work cut out for you. It is so light that prolonged chopping takes its toll on your arms really fast.
There should be no problem with batoning provided that a wood or polymor baton is used. I did once use a ballpeen hammer as a baton but it deformed the spine to the point that it caused premature breakage during flexing.
It can handle bone although it is not suggested. There will be edge damage after prolonged chopping. An occasional bump with bone should in no way harm the edge however.
I have stabbed stacked cardboard but I have not done it to denser items such as a phone book. I would tend to think that it can handle it but not having done it myself so I am not possitive.
The point can readily handle stabs into softer woods such as birch, maple, pine and oak. But I would not expect much if harder woods such as Ebony are used.
We have flexed tested the tip into both pine 2x2 and pine 2x4. It can easily handle aggesive hole digging. Don't expect it to survive if you bury the tip an inch deep. Treat is as you would any other material considering the taper and the thickness at the point.

And I believe that it should spread peanut butter just fine:rolleyes:.

That brings me to Digger. Yep, you went over board on your last post and tipped you hand. So just who are you?

Now to the issue of push cutting. I have included a sketch to try and clear things up. Your cut will still be 90deg to the edge (therefore not putting tension on the material as you suggested). The angle refered to is the angle of the knife itself. At perfect 90s it does not push cut worth a damn, but with a slight change in the blade it will slice till the cows come home. This also seems to be the method for starting a cut into wood. Don't expect a work of art on the sketch but you will get the point. Lastly please go back and read the original LM1 prototype post and the review on Jeff Randels site. Both explain in detail not only the push cutting issue but alot of other quirks as well. Since you did not know about the heat or Be issues, it leads me to beleive that you have not as of yet read these.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ColoradoDave
So far, it sounds like LM1 may be better suited to golf club heads than general cutlery. Seems ironic that, in both instances, my concern is with slicing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Funny but far from true. Name any material and you will find makers who love it and makers who hate it.

As to edge wear. LM1, as with any other amorphic metal, has what is called "edge band shearing" (there is a more scientific name but I can never remember it). Basically this is what you see when a sheet of plate glass breaks. The edges tend to break at sharp angles and the tend to be very sharp. This is happening with LM1 and it is the way that it wears (on a microscopic level of coarse). As the molicules on the very edge fail and break away from the rest of the material the seperate at 45 degree angles and tend to leave "dished" voids. This can also be looked at as really tiny flint knapping. So what is happening is that the edge is being replaced with a fresh edge at the point of failure. It is also causing the edge to take on micro serrations over time. This does not happen rapidily so there is no need to worry about premature edge wear. It can also really only be seen best under a 3 deminsional electron microscope. Otherwise you just see shadows and hints of what is happening. Under the 3d image it is very clear and explains alot in the behavior of the material.

Any other questions?
 
Oops forgot the sketch.

Give this method a try. I think it will make push cutting alot easier.

Also, if you find a edge angle grit combo that seems to work better than what I have found, I am all ears. After a year of R+D what I use has shown itself to be the best all around performer.
 

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Presenting the blade at an angle to the material to be cut will vastly improve the push cutting performance of any knife as it adds a shearing effect. On very high performance knives, such as the A.G. Russel Deer Hunter, Opinels and other thin blades, their performance is already high enough that you do not notice this effect.

I have come to believe that this shearing effect is also a primary reason why having a recurved edge (i.e. Emerson Commander, Kershaw BOa, BM 710, etc.) increases the slicing ability of that style knife, as the edge is being presented at an angle and drawn through the material during the slice.

As to the issue of presenting the blade canted, I have never seen an increase in cutting efficiency from this excercise, but it is seomthing I will examine the next time I do extensive cardboard cutting (breaking down a large number of boxes in the industrial contex to prepare for incineration or other disposal.)

One noted exception is when using certain chisel ground knives, I will be forced to use a canted position in order to effect a straight linear cut. As your edge geometery displays bi-lateral symetery in the conventional "V" shape, I don't see why this should increase the performance levels.
 
Mr. Carson,
It apprears that we cross-posted. I greatly admire your work, and your levels of fit and finish are legendary. I have several freinds who own your knives and they are highly prized.
 
Digger, don't know either. All I know is that it works like a charm. I have presented this finding the the materials lead researchers as well and they don't know.

Don't know if this would make any differance in "steel" knives. These are the first knives ever made from an amorphic material so new things are bound to pop-up. Not counting obsidian of coarse.
 
I have seen LM1 cut a boat load of stuff, and keep on ticking away.. I also know it is very difficult to work with.. It has its strong points and its weaknesses just like any blade material..
I see it working much more for high production, where you can cast, and have an almost finished knife blade right out of the mold..
I havent really had much time to work with LM1 blades. Testing various edge angles and thicknesses seems crucial on this stuff, as well as making sure it doesnt overheat..
I will have better formed thoughts when I get more experience making some of them I spose..

Also to the Mr. Angerer.. Nice pic there, but if you have a pistol in someones snout, its OK to keep both eyes open bud..;) Hope you were using a Tripod..:D
 
Well, Rdranger, thanks for the "option" of having yours and Cliffy's posts eliminated from my monitor. I wasn't aware of that option, but wouldn't choose to use it anyway. For one, thing, then I wouldn't be able to see that *extremely* macho shot of you and the pistol; ooh, scary. :~} And not being able to read Cliffy's posts would deprive me of MUCH humor. I can't possibly take anything Cliff has to say at face value, but if you can just get past the pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo, it's actually pretty entertaining. About the same way a car wreck is: you know it's horrible, and wrong, but you just can't look away. :~}

Gator97. So your job as a computer geek doesn't leave you any time to actually USE your knives. How surprising. Why is that guys like you are constantly bragging up their latest, greatest "investment" and yet never take the time to actually use the knife as intended? I don't collect knives. I have a few knives that I actually use for such mundane tasks as cutting string, cleaning small game (don't hunt large game, and no longer raise goats, so I don't have that option anymore either for testing a knife's abiliites). So I don't usually have many chances to take a picture of my knife before the coating is worn, or the blade is scratched, unless I take a pic of it right out of the box. And since I've never yet found it necesarry to chop a cinder block in half, or fight my way through a Mongol horde, I haven't tested any of my knives for those uses, either.

I stand by my previous asertion that Cliff's testing methods are absurd in the extreme. And anyone that thinks his methods are anything other than an attempt to get attention is missing the point. Anyone can write anything they want on the internet; all they have to do is buy themselves a web site. The fact that Cliff has a web site, and a rabid following, should in no way make someone believe his BS posturings.
 
Mr. Angerer,
Digger1, here's aiming at you: me smell troll. I think you are a troll

That is not very nice. I consider it a personal attack which is clearly prohibited by the operating rules of this forum. In addition, I find that people make these kind of attacks when they lack the logic to refute the valid points made in a persons argument.

I also find your signature line of great interest:
“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.” -- John Wayne in "The Sands of Iwo Jima” Corollary 1: If you do something stupid, it helps to be tough.

Based on your conduct and statements here, I tend to think you must be very, very tough.

Your avatar, which I presume is you, pointing a large caliber handgun at the reader, by itself makes you very tough. I sure would not want to run into you in a dark alley.

Further, I will not be responding to any more of your Ad Hominem attacks as I have chosen to place your name on my ignore list. I find this to be a wonderful feature when dealing with people like you. You are not here to learn or exchange information, you are here to attack people. I will not tolerate or be a part of that sort of conduct.

Also, Sticks and stones may break may bones,
but names will never hurt me.
 
Originally posted by digger1
I also find your signature line of great interest:
Based on your conduct and statements here, I tend to think you must be very, very tough.
Digger1, you missed the point of ol' John's quote. Which implies that you must be tough to have made it this far. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by digger1
Further, I will not be responding to anymore of your Ad Hominem attacks ...
Damn, you learned the English language rather quickly, digger1! Nice work! You are a quick study. Backwoods hillbillies generally wouldn't know any Latin, nor could they use Latin appropriately in a sentence.
Originally posted by digger1
... as I have chosen to place your name on my ignore list. I find this to be a wonderful feature when dealing with people like you.
Excellent use of forum features, digger1. Yer not such a newbie afterall, are ya? And I'll bet I'm not on your ignore list just yet either.
Originally posted by digger1
You are not here to learn or exchange information, you are hear to attack people. I will not tolerate or be a part of that sort of conduct.
Just the contrary. I'm here to learn, not cast BS and misinformation about. And I'll call out BS and misinformation when I see it. And in you, I see BS, and I see a troll. Yer outted.
Originally posted by digger1
Also, Sticks and stones may break may bones,
but names will never hurt me.
Where's the "Crying" emoticon when I need it.

:\'( Crying
:\'-( Crying


:D That is funny, however. So digger1 the troll is funny, but only occasionally.
 
Trace, you like this one better?

:D ... er, rather, both eyes open: :)

attachment.php


(and on the tripod: close... luckily my camera has a time delay shutter release... don't think I could have gotten my wife to take those shots, even with it unloaded. .451 is kinda uncomfortable to have pointing in your face)
 

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Originally posted by V Shrake
I don't collect knives. I have a few knives that I actually use for such mundane tasks as cutting string, cleaning small game (don't hunt large game, and no longer raise goats, so I don't have that option anymore either for testing a knife's abiliites).
Raising goats? So is Digger1 YOUR other alias? What exactly did you DO with those goats, Digger... er... V Shrake?

Originally posted by V Shrake
Now I know why I rarely, if ever, waste my time at Bladeforums. Geez.
I'll reiterate: Shame that you feel you've wasted your time here. Please, don't feel the need to continue.
 
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