Moderation team losing touch.

[Mike Davis]

As a fairly active member here, i was looking at a post in fixed blades earlier. The thread in question is a "Movie inspired knife for sale". Since when is it more important to moderate a comment made on a thread, than it is to uphold copyright infringement? I understand that posting negatively in a for sale thread is against the B/S/T Rules, But shouldn't that be trumped by the U.S. Copyright laws? I saw a post on said thread earlier, that pointed out the fact that the maker was in violation of these laws, but the thread was wiped by a moderator, and person was issued a warning. I personally think that the thread should be locked, and the person, living in the US, and operating in the US, breaking US copyright laws should be warned also. I hear a lot of complaining about people stealing others work, but apparently this( Which breaks a law) is ok? I think this will reflect poorly on the moderators of this forum.

 

[kreole]

Is it really the job of moderators to research and police copyright infringement?

Also I fail to see how "posting negatively in a for sale thread is against the B/S/T Rules, But shouldn't that be trumped by the U.S. Copyright laws?" is a valid criticism when you can report the post and write why you did. In other words, there is no need to post in a sales thread to tell a mod of the copyright infringement because you can do that when you report it, so the two aren't in conflict.

 

[hardheart]

Is it really the job of moderators to research and police copyright infringement?

yeah, since it is a violation of forum policy to sell knockoffs

Fakes/Homages:
As fakes and homage items are a legal gray area and obviously hurt the hobby, no fake or homage items may be sold on the Exchange. Members may not knowingly sell unlicensed knockoffs or counterfeit versions of knives (or any other goods) based upon the designs of their legitimate owner, manufacturer or custom maker. Additionally, members may not sell any knife or item known or suspected to be other than as described in terms of its lineage and authenticity.

 

[stabman]

If it's "inspired by" but not an exact copy, then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Mike Davis]

Kreole, i actually DO think it is the moderators job. Also he is using movie posters to help sell his knockoffs. Aside from using the exact same handle material to create said piece, it is a knockoff, and therefore against copyright laws, and against BF rules. The point i am trying to make (aside from the copyright thing) is if you are going to enforce the rules, they should be enforced all the way around, not just in favor of the OP.

 

[knarfeng]

Hard to comment when there is no link to the thread in question.

If you have a problem with the content of a sales thread,
If you have a problem with someone making insults in a thread,
If someone is trolling in a thread:

Click the <report post> button.

 

[RevDevil]

I respectfully disagree Mr. Davis. The For Sale sections are for exactly that, I warned and removed a post that was interfering with the sale of a knife. The post flung accusations of copyright infringement, threate of legal action against a maker, and a few other choice bits. I informed the author of the offending post via a warning (in a very polite way if I might be so bold to mention) that it was the incorrect venue to air such grievances; to which then I pointed in the direction of the Feedback Forum.

How exactly are we supposed to up on copyright laws now? I ask sincerely and with no undertone of cynicism I assure you. If the knife is marketed as the replica/duplicate knife and is labelled as such, the sales thread would be removed. A we do have a rule that disallows the sales of obvious fakes and "clone" knives.

I received an email from the member that wrote the post, to which I replied. Now, I understand there is an underlying theme regarding some makers here and some level of lack of ethics. If you are so inclined, please email me and we can discuss further. Or we can keep it here, I'm good either way. But I do want to help clean up any underlying issues.

 

[RyanW]

It may not be copyright infringement (I am not an attorney). But I would say it most definitely pays "Homage" to a knife someone created for a movie. Sold by using that movie as a sales pitch...

Maybe should have JUST hit the report button, but I am surprised the comments were removed. I have not seen that in the past. I don't think I need to post up the thread, that would only add to the temptation to have the conversation carry over to that forum.

IMO Sales thread should be pulled and encouraged to post on Ebay!

 

[Karda]

It is not our job to police copyright infringement or counterfiet merchandise.
We do however police the blatant counterfiet merchandise because it does noone in this hobby any good at all and has no place here.
It is up to sellers and makers to make the decision to play fair or risk their reputation by doing things less than reputable.
It is our job however, to police the site in accordance with the owners wishes, which i feel we do pretty well as a group of unpaid volunteers.

While we're on the subject....
Is it right for the author of the removed post to have notified the authorities on the maker in question?
Especially since he is a registered user with a knifemaker homepage with available pieces for sale in violation of the posted rules?

 

[Ed Braun]

Based on the volume, questionable quality, and the aggrieved level to which the original poster uses popular films titles, reprinted photos, and otherwise as his sole selling point?
Yes.
As duly noted, the blatant counterfeiting of pieces without due recompensense or licensing by the original creators is a clear violation of the ethics to which most of us adhere.
I agree that there were issues in how I voiced a complaint--but was any reporting (to authorities) done--no. I simply said that his "work" would be of interest to the various and many agencies now established to govern and regulate the sale of forgeries.
Even then, if you go to those varied outlets for copy right protection, they'll say that the sheer volume of such folks is so great even they can't police it and request public assistance. Did I say I'd report him to them? No. I said "reported" referring to admin HERE, I was intentionally vague on that detail because it's not the first time the maker in question has been confronted about his cloning, and yet his usual answer is to lock the thread--if on another forum.

To my knowledge, the explicit remarks when one registers is that posts won't be deleted, innappropriate comments edited by a mod in such instances, and as seen carried out by multiple mods.
RevDev's new to the mod circle, and therefore a little complacent in his actions--he's green.

To the point, however, it stands to reason that:
A) questioning me is hardly fair since, yes, although I have a site--it's badly outdated, and none of the pieces on there are for sale, just old work posted as an example of the kinds of blades I'd previously made. At no point or any place on my site are there prices listed or forms to request a quote on a blade.
B) I do not promote my site as I honor the rules about registered V basic V knifemaker accounts.

As to why I stopped posting months ago and why I have not and will not pay for a maker account:
I find it strongly distasteful that certain makers be allowed to level thinly veiled (or not at all) threats, harass people via PM, or throw temper tantrums to which they are mollified just to keep them around.
In my short interim here I watched a sliding scale of makers I admire and respect leave because the moderators and admin failed to do anything about these "pros" antics.
Blade Forums has a serious issue with its policies, promoting those who draw, and stifling the majority willing to call a spade a spade.
That said, regardless of anyone's sentiment or otherwise, I think HardHeart's drawn the unequivocal answer from the forum rules directly. While my post may have been misconstrued, it does not change the fact that the original post in question is, without a shadow of a doubt, an instance of a person capitalizing on name recognition alone to sell a totally impractical design that would not have any appeal EXCEPT the direct emulation of the design. Wood handles does not make it a Tribute to, and is simply copy right infringement.

To say otherwise is like saying, "not my house or problem" if you see someone sneaking into your neighbor's yard, cliche striped black/white shirt, black zorro mask, and a bag thrown over one shoulder.

 

[Karda]

but was any reporting (to authorities) done--no. I simply said that his "work" would be of interest to the various and many agencies now established to govern and regulate the sale of forgeries.
Even then, if you go to those varied outlets for copy right protection, they'll say that the sheer volume of such folks is so great even they can't police it and request public assistance. Did I say I'd report him to them? No. I said "reported" referring to admin HERE, I was intentionally vague on that detail because it's not the first time the maker in question has been confronted about his cloning, and yet his usual answer is to lock the thread--if on another forum.

These are your exact words (which leaves little vagueness as to your action):

Thanks for all the threads here and on JD, they along with your website have been reported to SIIA, Copynot, and copyright.gov. Thank you and have a nice day.

To my knowledge, the explicit remarks when one registers is that posts won't be deleted, innappropriate comments edited by a mod in such instances, and as seen carried out by multiple mods.
RevDev's new to the mod circle, and therefore a little complacent in his actions--he's green.

Nothing is deleted. Some things may end up in areas not visible to the public at large, but nothing is deleted.

To the point, however, it stands to reason that:
A) questioning me is hardly fair since, yes, although I have a site--it's badly outdated, and none of the pieces on there are for sale, just old work posted as an example of the kinds of blades I'd previously made. At no point or any place on my site are there prices listed or forms to request a quote on a blade.
B) I do not promote my site as I honor the rules about registered V basic V knifemaker accounts.

Your webpage displays your work and advertises you as a knifemaker. It has a contact form. Hard to misconstue that you may be benefitting from that without the proper membership.

As to why I stopped posting months ago and why I have not and will not pay for a maker account:
I find it strongly distasteful that certain makers be allowed to level thinly veiled (or not at all) threats, harass people via PM, or throw temper tantrums to which they are mollified just to keep them around.
In my short interim here I watched a sliding scale of makers I admire and respect leave because the moderators and admin failed to do anything about these "pros" antics.
Blade Forums has a serious issue with its policies, promoting those who draw, and stifling the majority willing to call a spade a spade.
That said, regardless of anyone's sentiment or otherwise, I think HardHeart's drawn the unequivocal answer from the forum rules directly. While my post may have been misconstrued, it does not change the fact that the original post in question is, without a shadow of a doubt, an instance of a person capitalizing on name recognition alone to sell a totally impractical design that would not have any appeal EXCEPT the direct emulation of the design. Wood handles does not make it a Tribute to, and is simply copy right infringement.

To say otherwise is like saying, "not my house or problem" if you see someone sneaking into your neighbor's yard, cliche striped black/white shirt, black zorro mask, and a bag thrown over one shoulder.

Even as a forum specific mod i've watched the backend pretty closely for a couple years now and i've seen very little reporting of the things you've posted here. Pretty hard for the moderators to do something about that which they are unaware.

The long and the short of it is.... if a member sees something amiss or has a problem with something/someone, report it to staff and let them handle the situation. Under no circumstance are members to take it upon themselves to do the moderators job. REport it and let the staff discuss any action that needs to be taken, if necessary.

With that said, i agree that the makers usage of movie posters and such is poor form and may consitute infringement as posted, but i'm no lawyer. Like it or not every maker here is more or less copying someone else, as evidenced by the myriad of makers producing Loveless inspired designs and the many Bowie styles offered by some makers here look like they are direct copies of each other.

 

[SavageSmurf]

I agree with the OP. Sometimes things SHOULD be posted in certain sales threads, to either warn buyers that are viewing the thread of something they may not be aware of, or point out potential legality issues regarding the item for sale. Starting a thread about it in W+C or contacting a mod wouldn't do anything, if your intention is to warn a buyer that may look at the sale thread. The forum policy should be changed to reflect the necessity of certain posts. It's not "negative" if it helps some one.

 

[Ed Braun]

That's not the entirety of my statement nor do I say I reported him--I simply state previously posted stuff was reported recently, I don't clarify who reported it or when. Likewise, if my original post is still visible to you, I heartily suggest reading it again instead of trying playing the ad hominem game.

It's hard to benefit from a website 8 months out of date and even then, never promoted. I invite you to review my posts and see what I have posted--to say I'm guilty of selling through my website when I never mention it, or post knives for sale. As I recall, I've posted, maybe, two blades and two partial WIPs. The blades already had owners and I'd asked for feedback. As to the WIPs, one was never finished because a mod contacted me and asked if I was posting it to promote sales, to wit, I killed it rather than risk such an accusation. The second WIP I've simply not finished because the project is on hold--even then I did not break forum rules because I did not post pictures, or insinuate that the piece was for sale.

But then again, saying that I have a site is proof I'm trying to profit is like saying that someone who carries a knife is a liability because they could, "snap at any time."
Again, I suggest looking over my post frequency--a handful of posts, and then infrequently since March, is hard to construe as trying to promote myself.
I put my web page on my profile because it offered that information, and mods encourage members to fill out their profiles. However, I'll gladly pull it since I was left unaware that having a website in the first place without a paid membership as a maker is a violation--but you might want to tell Goo that too.
Last I saw he was Basic, yet has a site in his profile.

As to your monitoring of reports on said actions by obvious detriments to this environment--you've gotten a few reports, you still got them. You still did nothing. And reason why reports drop off, is the people who make them have already left.

Still, I fail to see how I'm on trial when all I did was raise a red flag on a known plagiarist.

 

[hardheart]

With the added info, I am guessing this is about Archer Here.

 

[Karda]

Lets leave the dramatics out of it please, you are hardly "On Trial".
I hope you are generalising with the word "you" as i've only been a supermod a matter of months at this point and i had no control over what has transpired previously.

Your post in entirety:

It's still copyright infringement like most of your stuff--your major selling point is the movie connection, and to anyone's knowledge, you've never properly gotten permission to produce unlicensed copies for sale. Plenty of makers make blades "inspired by" but always vie for at least 10 points of visual difference to be considered "based on" and not direct clones.

And since you've made a public appearance on a television show, it stands to reason I think the major studios and developers whom you're ripping off would be very interested in your blatant capitalizing from their work, especially since your TopSh!t appearance has led plenty of folks to your page.

From the Digital Millennium Copyright Act:
Any and all reproductions based around digital media cannot be expressedly be sold under descriptions which directly impinge on the franchise for its major selling point--even phrases such as, "based on," "redesigned from," or "inspired by" is considered a knowing and complacent attempt to profit from generating recognition on name alone. Such goods are considered imitation and therefore fraud. Without the expressed written permission by the original copyright holders to reproduce a marketing item, such goods are considered counterfeit and grounds for litigation.

Thanks for all the threads here and on JD, they along with your website have been reported to SIIA, Copynot, and copyright.gov. Thank you and have a nice day.

For continuities sake, here is also the makers thread in question:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ced-by-Chronicles-of-Riddick-&#8211;-For-Sale

 

[Ed Braun]

With that said, i agree that the makers usage of movie posters and such is poor form and may consitute infringement as posted, but i'm no lawyer. Like it or not every maker here is more or less copying someone else, as evidenced by the myriad of makers producing Loveless inspired designs and the many Bowie styles offered by some makers here look like they are direct copies of each other.Last edited by Karda; Today at 01:40 AM.

Nice choice in edits and timing.
Still, there's nothing dramatic about being called to question when you never reference Archer, or his blatant disregard for copyrighting.
There's a grand divide between emulating a design that's solid engineering and a staple, or a blade with historical reference, but never identified--those are what are referred as styles, "Loveless style parachute," or "Sheffield style bowie."
You don't see reputable makers making exact replicas from films like "Alamo" and then using it as the selling point.

To the point, as to your abilities as mod, your wording suggests that you're at least aware of it--and even then, failed to properly reprimand those guilty parties. I'm not drawing in names because we both know it'd start a hell of a fecal storm.

And thank you for revifying my post, but it's still not the entire one I recall posting--I doubled down and in asterisk put "*reported*".

Still, it does not answer why you should set about questioning me, level claims of supposed efforts to personally benefit, or otherwise. In my post on Archer's thread I level no threats, I quote from the DMCA to justify WHY I posted, and again, lend no implications to when or who reported him to the aforementioned groups for copyright protection. If anything it sounds more like yet another reason why folks wouldn't opt to report someone, especially when not only nothing is done, but the person making the report is heavily scrutinized.

If anything, it's proving Mike right.

 

[not2sharp]

... But shouldn't that be trumped by the U.S. Copyright laws? ....

Copyright applied to printed words or images. Objects are protected by mechanical or design patents. There is very little with respect to a simple design like this that can be patented, it is just a variation on any number of prior knives. We have seen many thousands of versions of the Lyle Rambo knife, itself a take on the Randall model 18, which was inspired by the match safe knives knives made by Case and Schrade during the 1930s. Where do you draw the line? Are you suggesting that everyone who has taken a shot at the Iron Mistress (the knife used by Alan Ladd in the 1952 film) is equally guilty, or are the makers of that film stealing the design fom Jim Bowie, countless 19th century makers, and the endless list of similar knives that were in use, like the Seax, long before there was a Bowie?

Whatever personal rant you have against this maker does not belong on the Sales forum. If there is a copyright violation, it is not the knife but in the use of images from the film to market the knife. But we are not here to determine fair use doctrine.

n2s

 

[Karda]

Nice choice in edits and timing.
Still, there's nothing dramatic about being called to question when you never reference Archer, or his blatant disregard for copyrighting.
There's a grand divide between emulating a design that's solid engineering and a staple, or a blade with historical reference, but never identified--those are what are referred as styles, "Loveless style parachute," or "Sheffield style bowie."
You don't see reputable makers making exact replicas from films like "Alamo" and then using it as the selling point.

To the point, as to your abilities as mod, your wording suggests that you're at least aware of it--and even then, failed to properly reprimand those guilty parties. I'm not drawing in names because we both know it'd start a hell of a fecal storm.

And thank you for revifying my post, but it's still not the entire one I recall posting--I doubled down and in asterisk put "*reported*".

Still, it does not answer why you should set about questioning me, level claims of supposed efforts to personally benefit, or otherwise. In my post on Archer's thread I level no threats, I quote from the DMCA to justify WHY I posted, and again, lend no implications to when or who reported him to the aforementioned groups for copyright protection. If anything it sounds more like yet another reason why folks wouldn't opt to report someone, especially when not only nothing is done, but the person making the report is heavily scrutinized.

If anything, it's proving Mike right.

Calling into question the integrity of those you wish to help is going to get you quite far, i'm sure.
I added an additional thought to my post, pardon me for not asking your permission to do so.

Your post is there in entirety as posted by you in that thread, not my fault if you can't remember what you wrote.

I only posed the query that if it was right for you to throw stones while living in a glass house of your own, nothing more.
Had you followed the clearly posted rules and reported this instead of taking it upon yourself to police the makers forum yourself, you would not have gotten a warning and had your post removed. The staff would discuss your concerns and take action as is deemed necessary by commitee.

 

[Karda]

To the point, as to your abilities as mod, your wording suggests that you're at least aware of it--and even then, failed to properly reprimand those guilty parties. I'm not drawing in names because we both know it'd start a hell of a fecal storm.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. You don't seem to be afraid to throw feces.

 

[Maniacal Pete]

This thread is making my head hurt.