Modern becomes traditional

[grelcar]

What are your opinions about some of the more popular modern design knives that have been around for a long time being accepted as traditional? A Buck 110 seems to be generally accepted as traditional although it was probably seen as a modern design when introduced. Many modern materials are commonly used in generally accepted traditional knives. Many custom makers seem to blur the line between modern and traditional.

Would you ever accept one of the popular models from a maker like Spyderco, Benchmade or Kershaw as a traditional knife? It appears to me that modern design knives like these companies are producing make up a large portion of the current knife market. Their designs are even being copied in much the same manner as the accepted traditional knives are. Will there be a time when design patents expire and companies can copy and sell designs like a Spyderco Delica or Benchmade Griptillian much like stockmans and trappers are done now?


Greg

 

[pinnah]

To my way of thinking, something is traditional if it is clearly tied to the traditions of a particular culture. Despite the global spasm of knock offs (including those cheap Pakastani versions), the Buck 110 became iconically tied to American hunting culture, as well as to American labor culture, military culture and even biker gang culture. It's American in the same way that Ford Mustang is (and just about as old).

In contrast, the Ford Escort is a "world car". It is made in Ford plants all over globe and the same basic Escort looks exactly the same in Australia as it does in Japan and Germany and Illinois. I would never call the Escort a traditional American car. In the same vein, I see the modern tactical as a global phenomena. It belongs to the emerging world culture brought to you by the internet. It's trans-tradition.

 

[richstag]

A very thought inspiring post. I have been thinking of some of the same things.

It seems a hardcore traditionalist would not really accept a lot of what is being made today even in the traditional knife world.

I almost feel this post is indirectly asking what definitively makes a knife traditional? Possibly an attempt to clear the blurred lines?

Kevin

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Many members in this sub forum have said, and I agree, that you know when something is traditional, and when something isn't. Certain "feel" to it. Some of the newer designs from Boker that may be right on the line, are traditional with wood scales and damascus blades. My custom saddlehorn trapper, with a bright green G10 handle and bead blasted ATS34 blade, while a traditional pattern, is not traditional in my opinion. Neither is my folding Nessmuk Laconico custom with micarta scales. If it walks like a duck is the best opinion in my mind. Take the 110, and the ECO Lite 110. Both are basically the same design, but different handle scales. If you took a slipjoint pattern and made it in the same vein, that pattern would cease to be traditional in my mind.

In regards to the other matter of Benchmade/Spyderco one hand wonders becoming traditional patterns, I don't think so. A design such as the Benchmade AFCK or Spyderco Police or Military may be iconic to knife nuts, and heavily used, but traditional? No. Only knife nuts, and probably only knife nuts in this sub forum, are going to care what Traditional is defined as. Most knife nuts that know I like slipjoints, either call them old timey knives, or slipjoints.

This is a good idea for a thread, visited many times, but still a good idea. I think we will all have to agree to disagree. However, Peregrin and Knarfeng will have the final say in what is posted as traditional.

 

[Peregrin]

The question does come up now and then. The forum guidelines give the following description (red text taken from the guidelines):
General Guidelines


Relevant Subject Matter & Decorum:

The "Traditional Folders and Fixed Blades" sub-forum is defined as follows:

Discussion of classic Hunters, Trappers, Lockbacks, Slipjoints, Skinners and other classic "traditional" designs...

...In other words, this is a non-commercial knife discussion forum with the focus centered squarely on traditional knives and patterns such as you'll find in this reference:

Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, 4th Edition

The above covers it pretty well and Frank and I try not to be too restrictive. I think we're pretty flexible on types of steel and handle materials. It's more about the pattern and function.
We do count on our non US members to bring us the traditional knives of their homelands. For that we are grateful.
The tacticool "Easy open blade of doom" will get a mention from us everytime. There is sometimes a fine line, and it becomes a judgement call. Then we have to agree to disagree. Just remember, in general, 1) the mods are always right, 2) when the mods are wrong, see 1). .
If you're unsure about a knife then it's probably best to post it in the General Knife sub-forum.
If you are really up in the air about something, feel free to PM either Frank or me. We'll be happy to help if we can.

 

[quattromori]

Thanks to Pinnah for giving such a thought-provoking insight. I had never seen it that way (not consciously, at least).
There's a gap between something being traditional (meaning, linked to a certain culture/place/time) and something having been around for a long time. It's not just knives: you could say the same about music, architecture, anything.
There are, obviously, grey zones and blurred lines. But the basic concept, to me, is exactly what Pinnah expressed in his post.

Fausto

 

[ptradeco]

There have been several threads on this topic, a couple of them quite good. I would recommend a search of the Traditional Forum.

 

[grelcar]

In my opinion, right or wrong, I feel that a considering a knife to be traditional is pretty much a personal opinion. (Except mabye here on this forum )

The Buck 110 is generally considered to be a traditional knife on this forum. Are the Bucklite and the newer Eco lite modles generally considered traditional knives?

I believe Spyderco made some slipjoint versions of their knives to conform with knife laws in other countries. They make many lockback models. I don't believe these are considered as traditionals.

What if a Tony Bose put a modern tanto or tactical blade and titanium scales on a backpocket or coffin Jack? (I seriously doubt he would!)

I believe the Buck 110 has only been around for since the 60's. Twenty years many of the modern designes will have been around about that long. Will there be a day when what is considered a modern knife will be considered traditional because it has been around 40 or 50 years? Do you think the guidelines of what is generall accepted as a traditional knife will change?

Greg

 

[jackknife]

In my opinion, right or wrong, I feel that a considering a knife to be traditional is pretty much a personal opinion. (Except mabye here on this forum )

The Buck 110 is generally considered to be a traditional knife on this forum. Are the Bucklite and the newer Eco lite modles generally considered traditional knives?

I believe Spyderco made some slipjoint versions of their knives to conform with knife laws in other countries. They make many lockback models. I don't believe these are considered as traditionals.

What if a Tony Bose put a modern tanto or tactical blade and titanium scales on a backpocket or coffin Jack? (I seriously doubt he would!)

I believe the Buck 110 has only been around for since the 60's. Twenty years many of the modern designes will have been around about that long. Will there be a day when what is considered a modern knife will be considered traditional because it has been around 40 or 50 years? Do you think the guidelines of what is generall accepted as a traditional knife will change?

Greg

No, no, and no.

I don't think time has that much to do with something becoming traditional. Just because the Buck 110 has been around since the 60's does that make it traditional? No. No more than the AR-15, designed by Eugene Stoner in the 1960's make it a traditional rifle in the same class with a nice old Winchester 30-30.

I think the test of a traditional pocket knfe is, would my dear departed granddaddy recognize it as something he or his friends would carry. A traditional knife is like anything traditional that is associated with a particular culture. The stockman pattern comes from the cattle knife of the working cowboys. It came from the man in a saddle needing a pocket knife that met his particular needs. The trapper came from a trade dealing with pelts. The Barlow comes from a very old English pattern that was in use long before it was a homegrown knife. The sodbuster came from the Eastern European pattern called a folding butcher knife, and was a popular knife among the working class in Germany and points east. Even the little peanut comes from the early 1900's America and the dawn of a new style of life thanks to the industrial growth of the urban migration. The scout knife of course was the first knife of many young boys who had the good fortune to have been a boy scout. Somehow I doubt the Spyderco UK penknife will ever be associated with a particular culture. And if Tony ever puts a tanto blade on one of his works, then the end of the world is near, and nothing else will matter.

Traditional is more than just a style dupicated in modern materials. It's a link to times past, and a connection to the people who went before us, in materials that they would recognize, in a pattern they would have used in a life that is no longer lived. The working cowboy in the saddle, a sailor climbing the rigging of a ship to take in sail in a squall, a freight wagon driver on the Sante Fe trail mending a harness with, appropriately, a harness jack.

In the end, there may be debatable questions of what makes a traditional knife, traditional. I think it's like what a man once said about art and pornography. He didn't how to describe it, but he knew it when he saw it.

Carl.

 

[richstag]

No, no, and no.

I don't think time has that much to do with something becoming traditional. Just because the Buck 110 has been around since the 60's does that make it traditional? No. No more than the AR-15, designed by Eugene Stoner in the 1960's make it a traditional rifle in the same class with a nice old Winchester 30-30.

I think the test of a traditional pocket knfe is, would my dear departed granddaddy recognize it as something he or his friends would carry. A traditional knife is like anything traditional that is associated with a particular culture. The stockman pattern comes from the cattle knife of the working cowboys. It came from the man in a saddle needing a pocket knife that met his particular needs. The trapper came from a trade dealing with pelts. The Barlow comes from a very old English pattern that was in use long before it was a homegrown knife. The sodbuster came from the Eastern European pattern called a folding butcher knife, and was a popular knife among the working class in Germany and points east. Even the little peanut comes from the early 1900's America and the dawn of a new style of life thanks to the industrial growth of the urban migration. The scout knife of course was the first knife of many young boys who had the good fortune to have been a boy scout. Somehow I doubt the Spyderco UK penknife will ever be associated with a particular culture. And if Tony ever puts a tanto blade on one of his works, then the end of the world is near, and nothing else will matter.

Traditional is more than just a style dupicated in modern materials. It's a link to times past, and a connection to the people who went before us, in materials that they would recognize, in a pattern they would have used in a life that is no longer lived. The working cowboy in the saddle, a sailor climbing the rigging of a ship to take in sail in a squall, a freight wagon driver on the Sante Fe trail mending a harness with, appropriately, a harness jack.

In the end, there may be debatable questions of what makes a traditional knife, traditional. I think it's like what a man once said about art and pornography. He didn't how to describe it, but he knew it when he saw it.

Carl.

Very nice, Carl

I was really hoping to hear your take on this. What I find interesting is even as a young guy at the age of 28 I have a good feel for the same traditional ideals as you do. Maybe not exactly, but from your words I feel its close.

Now, with that said, do you think there is anything to be said for the folding utility knife like ModocED has said? In enough years will the grandchildren of today's working class view the folding utility knife simply as a tool or a traditional knife? If I carry my Sebenza until the day I die and my children and grandchildren picture grandpa and his sebenza does the sebenza then become a traditional knife generations down the road?

I guess Im still on the thought of HOW a knife really becomes considered traditional over a long time span.

Any thoughts would really be appreciated. Words of wisdom please

Kevin

 

[TLARbb]

I think some knives just fall into the traditional category due to the choices of how the knife is assembled or in some cases by whom it was introduced by and whether or not it brings "innovation" to the knife making world. For instance, I don't think the Case Copperlock is an old pattern, but it does embody the same or at least substantially similar construction as other older patterns that are clearly traditional. The Case Copperlock seems to be accepted here as a "traditional" as opposed to a "modern".

There are traditional "one hand openers" out there, but much different designs from the thumbstud or flipper opener.

Anyway, I'm not trying to muddy the water, just point out there is no sharply defined definition of "traditional" with the exception that "traditional" is what the mods say it is. Resistance is futile, argument counterproductive, and almost all of us know a traditional when we see it. Frank and Gary will keep us on the narrow path even if it is not exactly straight. I for one, really appreciate the work they do to keep this forum on point and friendly.

Ed J

 

[Thalestin]

Very nice, Carl

I was really hoping to hear your take on this. What I find interesting is even as a young guy at the age of 28 I have a good feel for the same traditional ideals as you do. Maybe not exactly, but from your words I feel its close.

Now, with that said, do you think there is anything to be said for the folding utility knife like ModocED has said? In enough years will the grandchildren of today's working class view the folding utility knife simply as a tool or a traditional knife? If I carry my Sebenza until the day I die and my children and grandchildren picture grandpa and his sebenza does the sebenza then become a traditional knife generations down the road?

I guess Im still on the thought of HOW a knife really becomes considered traditional over a long time span.

Any thoughts would really be appreciated. Words of wisdom please

Kevin

Really interesting question Kevin. You have to wonder if you carried a current traditional knife would it be considered traditional by your grand children. I think knife culture in itself may not be recognized by many in the coming generations. When people see my knives most don't recognize them as traditional but rather as just odd. Sadly our grand children might see your old knife and just see it as that odd old knife that grandpa used.

 

[richstag]

Really interesting question Kevin. You have to wonder if you carried a current traditional knife would it be considered traditional by your grand children. I think knife culture in itself may not be recognized by many in the coming generations. When people see my knives most don't recognize them as traditional but rather as just odd. Sadly our grand children might see your old knife and just see it as that odd old knife that grandpa used.

That sounds like a sad future but I do appreciate your take on things. Traditions do have to start somewhere though right

 

[pertinux]

Easy open blade of doom

Hold on, the what...?

How has no one mentioned this before?


I must have this knife!


Whoa, what was that?! Something strange just blew through here. Someone leave a door open?

I don't even like those whatever-they-are.

I must have this knife!

Er, resume. Please.

~ P.

 

[mtangent]

I can agree with the other definitions of "traditional" offered here, But would put it slightly differently.
I think it is a tradition when you do it because "that's the way it used to be done."
When these traditional styles were designed, they were functional, new, groundbreaking.

I predict, in the fullness of time, some people on Bladeforums will be pining for the knives of their youth, like titanium framelocks. The knives available from retailers are different, & just don't have the same style.
A new sub forum will be created, for Traditional Tacticals, or some such name. Nobody will argue with the concept, it will simply make sense. Various manufacturers, one possibly called Great Western Tactical, will produce knives to satisfy this market. Most young men will wonder why anybody would want an outdated knife, some will love the opportunity to buy & carry one, & will sell the rest of their modern collection.

 

[Jack Black]

No, no, and no.

I don't think time has that much to do with something becoming traditional. Just because the Buck 110 has been around since the 60's does that make it traditional? No. No more than the AR-15, designed by Eugene Stoner in the 1960's make it a traditional rifle in the same class with a nice old Winchester 30-30.

I think the test of a traditional pocket knfe is, would my dear departed granddaddy recognize it as something he or his friends would carry. A traditional knife is like anything traditional that is associated with a particular culture. The stockman pattern comes from the cattle knife of the working cowboys. It came from the man in a saddle needing a pocket knife that met his particular needs. The trapper came from a trade dealing with pelts. The Barlow comes from a very old English pattern that was in use long before it was a homegrown knife. The sodbuster came from the Eastern European pattern called a folding butcher knife, and was a popular knife among the working class in Germany and points east. Even the little peanut comes from the early 1900's America and the dawn of a new style of life thanks to the industrial growth of the urban migration. The scout knife of course was the first knife of many young boys who had the good fortune to have been a boy scout. Somehow I doubt the Spyderco UK penknife will ever be associated with a particular culture. And if Tony ever puts a tanto blade on one of his works, then the end of the world is near, and nothing else will matter.

Traditional is more than just a style dupicated in modern materials. It's a link to times past, and a connection to the people who went before us, in materials that they would recognize, in a pattern they would have used in a life that is no longer lived. The working cowboy in the saddle, a sailor climbing the rigging of a ship to take in sail in a squall, a freight wagon driver on the Sante Fe trail mending a harness with, appropriately, a harness jack.

In the end, there may be debatable questions of what makes a traditional knife, traditional. I think it's like what a man once said about art and pornography. He didn't how to describe it, but he knew it when he saw it.

Carl.

Stunning post Carl, a pleasure to read :thumbup:

 

[midnight flyer]

If I carry my Sebenza until the day I die and my children and grandchildren picture grandpa and his sebenza does the sebenza then become a traditional knife generations down the road?

For this group of denizens that inhabit this group, no. For future generations, absolutely.

How does anything become a "traditional" or true "classic"? It has to have enough utility value (real or perceived) to stand the test of time. In the history of knives, folders with backsprings are just a blink of the eye of history. So how much time passes before something is "traditional" or "old school"? Dunno... probably depends on what it is.

Can you imagine the scoffing you would get from a train conductor or anyone else that carried a metered pocket watch that you were going to start wearing a wristwatch? The early ones broke frequently and were unreliable. But now... a working watch from the turn of the last century is worth a fortune, and considered a traditional due to its distinctive styling and the incredible amount of handwork needed to make it.

No doubt, it is the same with backspringed folders. Tempering done by eye using inconsistent materials certainly created a world of broken backsprings back when that design of knife was introduced. Can you imagine the amount of grief and guffawing that someone out hunting got when his new folder broke? All those around him were either carrying friction folders or a fixed blade. To them, those knives were traditional. They were reliable, accepted and had a long track record of performance. A broken knife for a man that might only own one or two knives was completely unacceptable.

The same goes for my carpentry tools and collection of oldies I have. Some of the tools I have were considered "old school" when I bought them like my planes. I have read numerous treatises on tools such as planes that were shunned when they started making them with iron soles back in the 1800s. Real carpenters made their own planes... no one bought one. That was cheating. Now those old "traditional" planes with their mahogany handles and brass appointments are worth a huge amount of money. But until about the late 70s, they sold them at garage sales.

Now my woodworking community call themselves "neanders" which is short for "neanderthals" to show they respect the old ways and old tools and shun corded tools. They fight to show just how traditional they can get, and with the purchase of an old gem, they feel like they are even more connected to the past by the simple act of spending money. Yet 40 years ago... those same tools were in the junk bins of pawn shops and rusting away in garages across America.

It seems too, that a lot of folks decide they are more "traditional" as they get older. That certainly includes me. They long for their memories of a time when they were more carefree and active, had less responsibility. Objects that meant something to them then seem to mean a lot more to them now. I think the agreement of definition of a traditional knife on this subforum is in a large part due to the age of its participants. Nowhere else on any knife forum, blog or anywhere else on the internet have I read the definition of what makes a traditional knife be so closely defined. All part of the fun.

Robert

 

[Planterz]

The local "Classic Rock" station here (96.1 KLPX) recently "updated" its playlist a bit to include some more modern rock. Bands like Three Doors Down, Soundgarden, Metallica, and Nirvana. Now, I realize that Nevermind and Metallica (the black album) both come from the same year as Aerosmith's Pump, Use your Illusion by Guns N' Roses, Achtung Baby by U2 and Ozzy's No More Tears. But being the same age as these other albums that could definitely be called "Classic Rock" doesn't mean they fit within the "Classic Rock" genre. Metallica is "metal". And not the same way Dio or Iron Maiden are heavy metal, but can still be called "Classic Rock" because the styles overlap; Metallica is definitely "metal", age aside. The same way Nirvana is "Grunge" and not "Classic Rock". Now, I'm not saying that these other bands aren't good music, I'm just saying they don't belong sandwiched between The Beatles and the Rolling Stones on a "Classic Rock" stations playlist, no matter how old they might be.

I look at "traditional knives" the same way. The Spyderco C01 Worker is 31 years old. Is it a classic? Sure. Is it traditional? No, nor will it be even after another 30 years has passed.

 

[Astrogator]

I have seen pictures of rocker locked folders dating back to the 1800's.

I submit that not all locking knives are non-traditional.

 

[knarfeng]

There will always be a difference between a stockman and a Delica. No matter how long they have been around, they aren't the same. I have both. I carry both. But they aren't the same. Not even close.