Modern becomes traditional

[jackknife]

I have seen pictures of rocker locked folders dating back to the 1800's.

I submit that not all locking knives are non-traditional.

Sure there are. Locking folders go back a very long way. When John Wilkes Booth was killed at Garrett's barn, he had a folding pocket dagger on him. Looked sort of like the Case swing guard folder from the 60's. Old design. And in Spain, the Navaja goes back a couple hundred years. But a very large amount of the locking folders from a bygone era were made as weapons. They never were that popular for the common working man, or they wouldn't be so rare. Growing up when I did, I almost never saw a locking blade knife in the hands of any of the men I was around. In fact, the only locking blade knives I saw in the 1950's were the Italian switchblades that dad and Uncle Paul and most of the men I admired, called a punk's weapon. They were openly disdainful of them. I guess I inherited a lot of that attitude growing up, as I never was tempted to have a knife that the blade locked. Our scout master, Mr. Van told us that he'd better not catch any of us with one. It seemed to be a sociological thing perhaps of the era.

Going back 50, or even a hundred years, locking blade knives seem to be a rare thing to find examples of. Most of the well used knives we find from the early 20th and even the 19th century seems to be slip joints of some type. Cattle, Barlow, jacks in many forms. There just is not that many example of well used lockblades from long ago.

Carl.

 

[Rupestris]

Many members in this sub forum have said, and I agree, that you know when something is traditional, and when something isn't. Certain "feel" to it.

In my opinion, right or wrong, I feel that a considering a knife to be traditional is pretty much a personal opinion.

I don't think time has that much to do with something becoming traditional. Just because the Buck 110 has been around since the 60's does that make it traditional? No. No more than the AR-15, designed by Eugene Stoner in the 1960's make it a traditional rifle in the same class with a nice old Winchester 30-30.

Traditional is more than just a style dupicated in modern materials. It's a link to times past, and a connection to the people who went before us, in materials that they would recognize, in a pattern they would have used in a life that is no longer lived. The working cowboy in the saddle, a sailor climbing the rigging of a ship to take in sail in a squall, a freight wagon driver on the Sante Fe trail mending a harness with, appropriately, a harness jack.

I think some knives just fall into the traditional category due to the choices of how the knife is assembled or in some cases by whom it was introduced by and whether or not it brings "innovation" to the knife making world. For instance, I don't think the Case Copperlock is an old pattern, but it does embody the same or at least substantially similar construction as other older patterns that are clearly traditional. The Case Copperlock seems to be accepted here as a "traditional" as opposed to a "modern".

Agree X4. Especially with TLARbb and the Copperlock. Personally I would call it a traditional. Maybe it has to do with the construction or Case's history and tradition. There is a feel to it.

For instance, this one does not have that "feel". At least not for me.

It has some of the hallmarks of a traditional (nail nick/faux stag/quasi-bolstered look) but due to the construction, to me, it isn't.

 

[FarmKid]

A traditional is something our grandfathers would have carried 50 years ago. A basic cutting instrument to cut things or use as a tool; mayb to use for self defense if they had to. But I don't see a tatical knife be put in a traditional category. Just because a knife has bone or wood handles doesn't mean it's traditional. Cold steel had some traditional knives that was traditional bc they was. But people mostly think of cold steel or spyderco as modern or tatical so they are going to associate their products that way. Case has the trapperlock, now is that knife traditional or tatical? The knife is built on a traditional 54 pattern but is liner lock and is one handed. But case is a traditional company and people think all their knives is traditional. So I think in the future each style of knife will have its place. If a company makes a knife on a traditional knife pattern for example; spyderco makes a 3 1/2 inch serpentine stock that would be a traditional pattern.

 

[quattromori]

This sort of conversation usually sways our deepest feelings and shakes our roots
Back to the OP: maybe I got it wrong, but I thought the point was not discussing what is traditional and what's not, but rather to think (or predict) if any of today's modern folders will ever be considered traditionals. And we all have to consider this as possible.
I wasn't there but I'm sure that the Buck 110 stroke the users as a modern knife when it first came out. Same for Swiss Army knives, for sure. And now, we all consider them traditionals. I'm also quite sure that, if centuries ago, someone had come to Italy with a two bladed folder (made in Sheffield), my ancestors would have considered it supermodern (and possibly overkill). At the same time, other knives (and other tools, and music, and art, and so on) never got (and never will get) the "status" of traditional (at least in the common sense of the word - there are grey zones and there's personal opinions).
So, if we look around, there are so many modern objects around us. Let's stick to knives. Which of today's modern knives have the best chance to be considered traditionals in 50 years? The answer (if any) is between the lines in Pinnah's post. Quality, spread, uniqueness and innovation are not determining factors in the matter. I do believe that only the knives which are linked to a certain situation (place, time, use, community) in a strong way will ever be considered traditionals.
Maybe the folding utility knife will make it there. Maybe Leatherman pliers. I don't know.
We'll see what happens in 2062, and then talk again of this topic

Fausto

 

[pinnah]

Fausto, I have a hard time limiting this to just knives.

There was a great episode on the British TV show "Top Gear" (ok lots of great scenes on that show). They were having a mock challenge between a British team (the hosts), a German team and a French team. Each team would bring cars from their country to some foolish car challenge. One was something like an agility test. The Brits brought a Mini Cooper. And the Germans brought a ...
.
.
.
Mini Cooper.

Of course, the joke being that the iconic British Mini Cooper was no owned and produced by the German BMW.

This begs the question, what makes a car a traditional car? What makes some footwear traditional and other not? Some clothing traditional and others not? What makes some bikes traditional and other not? I can assure you that a traditional Italian road racer is different from a tradition French rando bike and different from a traditional British club racer. Nothing at all traditional about modern carbon race bikes.

I consider everything in this picture to be traditional. Traditional jacket. Traditional gun. Traditional knife. The style and design are very rooted in local cultures and traditions.

grandpas-stuff by Pinnah, on Flickr

I see more and more interest in traditional things among some people. I generally see this as reaction to the rise of a new global internet culture. The Honda Accord is not a traditional car and never will be. I just can see a Spyderco knife becoming traditional either. It's a product and emblem of trans cultural values. It could be made anywhere by any company in any country and be just as at home.

 

[Jack Black]

Sure there are. Locking folders go back a very long way. When John Wilkes Booth was killed at Garrett's barn, he had a folding pocket dagger on him. Looked sort of like the Case swing guard folder from the 60's. Old design. And in Spain, the Navaja goes back a couple hundred years. But a very large amount of the locking folders from a bygone era were made as weapons. They never were that popular for the common working man, or they wouldn't be so rare. Growing up when I did, I almost never saw a locking blade knife in the hands of any of the men I was around. In fact, the only locking blade knives I saw in the 1950's were the Italian switchblades that dad and Uncle Paul and most of the men I admired, called a punk's weapon. They were openly disdainful of them. I guess I inherited a lot of that attitude growing up, as I never was tempted to have a knife that the blade locked. Our scout master, Mr. Van told us that he'd better not catch any of us with one. It seemed to be a sociological thing perhaps of the era.

Carl.

It was just the same when I was a kid growing up, there were penknives and jack-knives, and sheath knives, but the first time I saw a 'lock-knife' it was one of the cheap Italian switchblades, which used to be sold here with the springs removed. I actually saw one on sale the other day, first time I've seen one in years.

Fausto, I have a hard time limiting this to just knives.

There was a great episode on the British TV show "Top Gear" (ok lots of great scenes on that show). They were having a mock challenge between a British team (the hosts), a German team and a French team. Each team would bring cars from their country to some foolish car challenge. One was something like an agility test. The Brits brought a Mini Cooper. And the Germans brought a ...
.
.
.
Mini Cooper.

Of course, the joke being that the iconic British Mini Cooper was no owned and produced by the German BMW.

And as I'm sure Fausto will note, designed by an Italian!

I consider everything in this picture to be traditional. Traditional jacket. Traditional gun. Traditional knife. The style and design are very rooted in local cultures and traditions.

grandpas-stuff by Pinnah, on Flickr

Great pic :thumbup:

 

[Modoc ED]

Even "Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, 4th Edition" shows Modern Knives (Spyderco, Benchmade, etc.) on pages222 and 223 of his book. BUT "traditional Knives" are kinda like pornography - You know em when you see em.

There's no way the top knife could ever be considered a "Traditional" knife (in the sense of this Tradition Forum). The bottom knife - a classic "Traditional" knife.

 

[richstag]

Thanks Robert for your thoughts.

Thanks to everyone actually.

Fausto, looking at the past and how knives became "traditional" can help project the future.

To the folks talking of what is considered traditional for this forum, that's not what I am personally thinking about.

I know my emersons, sebenzas, and box cutters will never be considered traditional here. As it should be. I'm thinking more of 100 years from now.

Kevin

 

[pinnah]

Kevin, I think it's really, really hard to project 100 out from now. I think it's very easy to downplay the effects of cyber-communications and cyber-media in terms of how we define and understand culture. Here's an example tied to that hunting rifle I posted above... I have a nephew from a very small village in norther Vermont. Less than 300 people and a good 20 minutes drive from the nearest village. This "kid" was graduating college and big tall strapping young woodsman. We knew each other pretty well from our time at hunting camp together.

He asked to go backpacking with me in NH (a passion of mine) and on the trip, he literally broke down in tears due to his confusion on several social issues. He was raised one way, but he stayed in touch with his friends on Facebook and the world he was dealing with on Facebook was much bigger and more confusing that what he was exposed to in his village.

IMO, cultural diversity is based on isolation. Things like the forum break down isolation. In nearly all ways, this is good. One of the things I like best about this forum is the non-US participation which has taught me about so many wonderful traditional knives that I had never known about.

Can we connect like that while retaining our traditions?

 

[Jack Black]

I love the way there's always so much more discusssed on this forum than the love of traditional knives that brings us all together

 

[richstag]

Kevin, I think it's really, really hard to project 100 out from now. I think it's very easy to downplay the effects of cyber-communications and cyber-media in terms of how we define and understand culture. Here's an example tied to that hunting rifle I posted above... I have a nephew from a very small village in norther Vermont. Less than 300 people and a good 20 minutes drive from the nearest village. This "kid" was graduating college and big tall strapping young woodsman. We knew each other pretty well from our time at hunting camp together.

He asked to go backpacking with me in NH (a passion of mine) and on the trip, he literally broke down in tears due to his confusion on several social issues. He was raised one way, but he stayed in touch with his friends on Facebook and the world he was dealing with on Facebook was much bigger and more confusing that what he was exposed to in his village.

IMO, cultural diversity is based on isolation. Things like the forum break down isolation. In nearly all ways, this is good. One of the things I like best about this forum is the non-US participation which has taught me about so many wonderful traditional knives that I had never known about.

Can we connect like that while retaining our traditions?

I believe so but that comes to the point I was trying to clarify for myself. How are traditions established and how easily can outside factors detract from them.

I believe that every single family will have its own set of traditions. I think new traditions can be formed over time. Perhaps like you mentioned a more isolated person would have very strict traditions that they find it wrong to stray from in any way? If you take an example like Carl mentioned with the AR15 dating to around the time of the Buck 110 but only one of them being considered tradtional thoughts can really be provoked. For example in my mind the Buck 110 was used by many common folks and it can evoke memories of hunting and camping and other traditional and usually family oriented activities. A lot of the traditional knives seem to be linked to a common way that man lived and how the particular pattern suited those lifestyles best. The AR15 will more than likely never inspire the same fond memories of an old lever action used as a tool in a hunt to provide food. It will most likely always be a weapon of war.

I suppose, if I was to have generations of family to come that I took camping and traveling and the tool used was my sebenza, that would be how the perspective would begin to come to fruition. My mind tends to over think stuff and especially when it has to do with traditions and how ideals are formed. Sometimes it seems if another person has a different set of traditions the more isolated folks may view them as "alien". I personally love to learn of other peoples traditions in life and how they came to be. Family to me is the most important in this life. Most of what is considered traditional seems to be linked to family.

Kevin

 

[mtangent]

Thoughtful post,Pinnah.
I think traditions have never been retained forever.
I think the next traditions of note will be traditions of the Global Village.
The only things on that list will be things that are world wide phenomenon now.

So, what knife styles are popular world wide now? Nothing else has the possibility of becoming a tradition.
I think the most likely style would be bushcrafter's, simply for the specificity of purpose.

I also think affordability has something to do with it: the more people who can buy one, the more likely it is to become an ingrained part of a culture. So Ti framelocks are less likely to make it.

 

[avoidspam]

Great posts

I also think it has a lot to do with manufacture and consequent soul. If GEC made a Benchmade Griptillain, chances are quite a lot of us would like it, simply because it would have that quality to it that only a knife made with traditional skills and tooling can. At this point in time precise, mass manufacturing has become cheap. Ironically many custom makers aspire to this precision of manufacture (not the cheap bit!). The real skill the custom maker has is producing that level of precision with traditional tooling and techniques whilst keeping the personal touch. This age of mass production It is something to celebrate (I think) but it is hard to see any traditional aspiration coming from the sheer quantity of options now.

sam

 

[Jack Black]

Thoughtful post,Pinnah.
I think traditions have never been retained forever.
I think the next traditions of note will be traditions of the Global Village.
The only things on that list will be things that are world wide phenomenon now.

So, what knife styles are popular world wide now? Nothing else has the possibility of becoming a tradition.
I think the most likely style would be bushcrafter's, simply for the specificity of purpose.

I also think affordability has something to do with it: the more people who can buy one, the more likely it is to become an ingrained part of a culture. So Ti framelocks are less likely to make it.

For me that example shows the difference between tradition and what I think is actually a very shallow fashion.

 

[JK Knives]

I always think of traditionals as being the type of knife my grampa carried, which was usually a Kent penknife for dress wear, and a stockman that I don`t know who made (the reason I know the Kent is because I have it). Although some may consider knives like the Buck 110 (one of my favorites) a traditional, I think of it as more of a classic. Think Winchester 94 compared to a Pre 1964 Model 70 Winchester. (the 94 is traditional, the model 70 is classic) Just an old mans thoughts.

 

[mtangent]

For me that example shows the difference between tradition and what I think is actually a very shallow fashion.

You may be right. I see it as a fashion too. but to some extent, that makes it more likely to be considered traditional in 50 yrs time.

 

[Astrogator]

I really like this forum because the members are able to conduct discussion without any animosity and ill feeling.

Fausto (post no. 24 above) says it very nicely, but all the other discussions are very pertinent as well.

This is an interesting forum for sure.

Peace.

 

[black mamba]

This Kershaw Gentlemen's Folder is kinda borderline, but still on the modern (not traditional) side of things.
No clip or thumbstud, no tanto style blade, but still not quite traditional. A very nice knife, though. Micarta and VG-10.

 

[mtangent]

Would I be correct in thinking a lanyard tube is modern, and a bail would be the traditional option?

 

[black mamba]

I don't think of a lanyard tube as a deal breaker. This one is still very traditional to me.