Modern becomes traditional

[midnight flyer]

Would I be correct in thinking a lanyard tube is modern, and a bail would be the traditional option?

I think it is the other way around. I have seen old (really old) knives that used the lanyard hole as a keeper for a sheath that had a loop that went in the hole, then was opened and put around the butt of the handle to hold the knife in the sheath. This was long before snaps.

Back when all knives were handmade, adding a bail would take significantly more work than simply knocking a hole in a handle. Taking more time and material, the everyday blacksmith/bladesmith was not likely to put time and resources into making a bail. Besides, the bail came to be more prevalent when we had easy to use clips, hooks and carabiners to actually hook the knife to you or your gear using the bail as an attachment point.

I have seen lanyard/thong holes on old kitchen knives, battle knives, and hunting knives that are hundreds of years old in design. They were used not only to secure the knife when in personal storage, but to assure a better grip when in use. There are a few threads on the forum about the proper grip of a knife when using a thong. It is more secure and much more safe depending on your task.

I haven't seen anyone ever use a thong grip with the thong attached to a bail.

Robert

 

[lutejones]

Hey guys this forum is great for such discussions,
To me for something to become a classic has to be used an be iconic to a whole generation, when some knives became traditional like the 110 everybody or almost everyone used to carry knives in a regular basis. Now we are only a few nuts who still carry and use a pocket knife so there is no chance for modern folders to become traditional, sure there will be classic designs like the Delica and Endura or maybe the griptilians but they wouldn't be recognise as traditionals by general public.
In this time we are on the age of technology so I think the classics will be the iPhone and things like that, revolutionary items that change the rules at their Time. When all computers will be controlled by voice the keyboard will become traditional and will be nuts that will keep using hands to input data and they will be looked at like old timeys

Just my two cents.
Regards
Mateo

 

[Raymond1000]

No, no, and no.

I don't think time has that much to do with something becoming traditional. Just because the Buck 110 has been around since the 60's does that make it traditional? No. No more than the AR-15, designed by Eugene Stoner in the 1960's make it a traditional rifle in the same class with a nice old Winchester 30-30.

I think the test of a traditional pocket knfe is, would my dear departed granddaddy recognize it as something he or his friends would carry. A traditional knife is like anything traditional that is associated with a particular culture. The stockman pattern comes from the cattle knife of the working cowboys. It came from the man in a saddle needing a pocket knife that met his particular needs. The trapper came from a trade dealing with pelts. The Barlow comes from a very old English pattern that was in use long before it was a homegrown knife. The sodbuster came from the Eastern European pattern called a folding butcher knife, and was a popular knife among the working class in Germany and points east. Even the little peanut comes from the early 1900's America and the dawn of a new style of life thanks to the industrial growth of the urban migration. The scout knife of course was the first knife of many young boys who had the good fortune to have been a boy scout. Somehow I doubt the Spyderco UK penknife will ever be associated with a particular culture. And if Tony ever puts a tanto blade on one of his works, then the end of the world is near, and nothing else will matter.

Traditional is more than just a style dupicated in modern materials. It's a link to times past, and a connection to the people who went before us, in materials that they would recognize, in a pattern they would have used in a life that is no longer lived. The working cowboy in the saddle, a sailor climbing the rigging of a ship to take in sail in a squall, a freight wagon driver on the Sante Fe trail mending a harness with, appropriately, a harness jack.

In the end, there may be debatable questions of what makes a traditional knife, traditional. I think it's like what a man once said about art and pornography. He didn't how to describe it, but he knew it when he saw it.

Carl.

It’s a sure bet that there are youngsters on this forum who’s beloved grandfather did carry the Buck 110 or one of its clones.

I suspect that the exact nature of “traditional” is…not so much a moving target as an evolving target.

The Spyderco UK penknife is associated with Great Britain, by definition. It was designed to cope with England’s nutty anti-knife laws. It’s still not traditional. I don’t see how it can ever be traditional in the UK. Not as long as England’s nutty anti-knife culture persists. There is no room in that culture for any tradition of knife carrying to exist.

 

[Thalestin]

That sounds like a sad future but I do appreciate your take on things. Traditions do have to start somewhere though right

It does sound sad, but hopefully guys like us can pass on the tradition for many years to come

 

[Raymond1000]

For this group of denizens that inhabit this group, no. For future generations, absolutely.

How does anything become a "traditional" or true "classic"? It has to have enough utility value (real or perceived) to stand the test of time. In the history of knives, folders with backsprings are just a blink of the eye of history. So how much time passes before something is "traditional" or "old school"? Dunno... probably depends on what it is.

Can you imagine the scoffing you would get from a train conductor or anyone else that carried a metered pocket watch that you were going to start wearing a wristwatch? The early ones broke frequently and were unreliable. But now... a working watch from the turn of the last century is worth a fortune, and considered a traditional due to its distinctive styling and the incredible amount of handwork needed to make it.

No doubt, it is the same with backspringed folders. Tempering done by eye using inconsistent materials certainly created a world of broken backsprings back when that design of knife was introduced. Can you imagine the amount of grief and guffawing that someone out hunting got when his new folder broke? All those around him were either carrying friction folders or a fixed blade. To them, those knives were traditional. They were reliable, accepted and had a long track record of performance. A broken knife for a man that might only own one or two knives was completely unacceptable.

The same goes for my carpentry tools and collection of oldies I have. Some of the tools I have were considered "old school" when I bought them like my planes. I have read numerous treatises on tools such as planes that were shunned when they started making them with iron soles back in the 1800s. Real carpenters made their own planes... no one bought one. That was cheating. Now those old "traditional" planes with their mahogany handles and brass appointments are worth a huge amount of money. But until about the late 70s, they sold them at garage sales.

Now my woodworking community call themselves "neanders" which is short for "neanderthals" to show they respect the old ways and old tools and shun corded tools. They fight to show just how traditional they can get, and with the purchase of an old gem, they feel like they are even more connected to the past by the simple act of spending money. Yet 40 years ago... those same tools were in the junk bins of pawn shops and rusting away in garages across America.

It seems too, that a lot of folks decide they are more "traditional" as they get older. That certainly includes me. They long for their memories of a time when they were more carefree and active, had less responsibility. Objects that meant something to them then seem to mean a lot more to them now. I think the agreement of definition of a traditional knife on this subforum is in a large part due to the age of its participants. Nowhere else on any knife forum, blog or anywhere else on the internet have I read the definition of what makes a traditional knife be so closely defined. All part of the fun.

Robert

I once worked with a Mexican carpenter. He had exactly that attitude about planes. We were framing tract houses, so I never saw his planes in action. But he insisted that his four foot long wooden jointer plain was better than anything you could buy.

When I was a young carpenter, the Yankee Screwdriver was a necessary tool. You couldn’t make time hanging doors without one.

Nowadays electric screwdrivers rule the roost. My Yankee screwdriver has turned into a quaint antique.

 

[Modoc ED]

I don't think of a lanyard tube as a deal breaker. This one is still very traditional to me.

You're right Jeff. The lanyard tube has been around for a long time as evidenced by this Case Folding Hunter that I bougnt in 1965. It's the knife I carried for 24-years in the Navy.

 

[OzarkCreekWalker]

... It's a link to times past, and a connection to the people who went before us, in materials that they would recognize, in a pattern they would have used in a life that is no longer lived.

This is probably the end-all-be-all definition of traditional, beautifully put, Carl

 

[mtangent]

When light sabres are invented, anything with a steel blade will become traditional.
Possibly even the junk will get a mention. Somebody will post a picture of an an old asian knife, bent & still shiny. People will respond "Yeah, that reminds me...."

Thanks for the responses regarding lanyard holes. It does make sense that something so simple would have been around a while.

 

[grelcar]

I have really enjoyed the many insightful responses.

Greg