Modern COMBAT swords - who, where, what and, how much?

Yep, it's pretty close to that. The recurve isn't as deep and starts closer to the handle, but I'd say the resemblance is substantial. Funny thing about tools as old as knives, you can never have a totally "new: idea - but then you also have so much great thinking to work from.

I'll try to post a picture of mine soon.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Here it is. Sorry about the picture quality
smile.gif


<img src=http://helix.hampshire.edu/~tenth/corduroy/commac1.jpg>

-Corduroy
 
I like the looks of that Corduroy. What is it's weight?
 
Hmm, I dunno. Less than you would expect for its size, I can tell you that - it's 3/16" fully flat ground. Suppose I should bring it into the Post Office and ask them to weigh it for me
wink.gif
?

I also was a bit off in my memory of the length - the blade's 15" and a smidge.

Seriously, anyone have a good idea how I could get it weighed, short of buying a postal scale? Maybe a deli???

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Corduroy,

That’s a good looking sword-thing. Have you experienced any chipping on the ATS-34 blade with heavy chopping? Was there any special heat-treatment of the blade?

 
The heat-treating was done by Texas Knifemaker's Supply - nothing special, just their usual fine work. I've had a number of knives in 440C and ATS-34 done by them, and find that in every case the blade substantially outperforms factory knives in the same steel, so whatever they are doing, I like it. I haven't Rockwell-tested the blades, but I strongly suspect that for ATS-34 they tend towards a lower hardness than the typical 59-61, because it's darn easy to sharpen and doesn't feel as "crystaline" gritty on a stone as, say, a Benchmade. Edge-holding is still very good, though.

I haven't experience chipping at all, through live tree, dry hardwood, and pocket change. After deciding the pennies weren't abusive enough, I did whack through some brass rod and put some large nicks into a piece of aluminum barstock (yeah, I got carried away). The knife did show evidence of these strikes, but not chipping; the edge was warped slightly in the location of the strike, but no material was lost.

I had one problem while beating up this blade, and that was the lanyard tubes in the front guard began to shift laterally from the vibration of the strikes, apparently overcoming both epoxy and substantial friction. There was no evidence, however, that the front of the handle scales themselves were loose. I whacked the tubing back into place, but am not sure how to keep the problem from recurring. No matter, really, as the project was basically a learning experience.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
I have over 30 "swords" most of them are old patterns both European and Pacific rim. One question I have is where and how you want to carry it, What use you plan for it? In an urban setting you are very linited to carry. Therefore I suggest you look for a short sword or Bolo blade.These can be easily carried in a gym bag or briefcase. Blade length from 15-18 inches with siutable handle for one handed use.
With this in mind you might consider any of a number of custom bowie "knives" or Kukris. If you want a true sword in the 17-24 inch range there are a lot of them out there both custom and some descent factory ones. I have been very happy with my Black Cloud for three years. It has cut numerous carpet rollers and beef bones with no ill effects.

Good Hunting,

ts
 
As far as sword designs go, it's hard to beat a Japanese design. You don't have to have one that has a 26-in. blade. Get something along the line of a wakizashi with a 15-in. blade or so is good enough.

I hate to admit it, but the Japanese blade design is a superb exercise in engineering.

About modern sword, is that an oxymoron or what? I like swords as much as I like any other edged weapons, but is there such a thing as modern sword?
 
I used to nothing about swords,until I became a member of SWORDFORUM.They have a large variety of swordsmiths that participate in the forum,and can give you some good advice.They also have a recommended business links section.This will keep you out of trouble.There's alot of manufacturers and companys selling swords that they claim to be battle worthy when they are nothing but pieces of SH**!
I recommend Salamander Armoury out in Las Vegas.DR.Jim Hrisoulas owner/operater.Author of a few books and video's.Made swords for movies and famous VIP'S.He's well known for his pattern welded blades(Damascus)I Own a nice Broadsword from him high quality work.When you order a sword from Jim you get a real battleworthy sword.No dissappointment or B.S. Thanks,RS
 
I was going to mention Jim Hrisolaus myself. I think his page is www.atar.com, his swords are warranteed(nobody can "garuantee") against breakage in combat. To my mind, a modern sword would be one of 18 inch blade, a single-hander, coming in at 24'' total so as not to be a hinderance to a soldier. I would like a double-edged sword, two inches wide, flat-ground. Opens up more attacks and gives you a second edge when the first gets dull. In fact, that was the entire idea. A re-load. It was not uncommon in Europe for warriors to go into battle with their prized sword, then if it broke or got dull, their would be a bucket-o-swords they could grab something out of. The Vikings were known for this. I would like a simple cruciform hilt for the sake of compactness. Maybe six-inches breadth. Kydex scabbard, worn across back, or on alice pack. I would have to experiment to find the most comfortable method of cary.

As combat becomes more and more urban-oriented, and peace-keeping and police=actions more common, I think there will be a rising demand for close-quarter weapons and techniques. The sword is the queen-mother of close-in weapons. A gun wins at range, but toe-toe my experience has been the odds are in the melee weapon's favor. Sure, a bullet is supersonic. In one, unswerving, direction. How fast is the human behind it though? How many rounds in your SMG? Can your gun see/shoot around corners? Will your MP-5 go through ballistic armor? I have my doubts about a 9mm through thick kevlar. The U.S. has ceramet armor that will turn 7.62 NATO under developement for ForceXXI/LandWarrior.
There is nothing particularly facsinating about the design of a katana, besides the fact they are popular. Their blunt point sucks at thrusts even if it is strong, their intense craftsmanship reflects spiritual/ceremonial sentiment and was intended to make up for technological shortcomings. Homogenous steel blades are metalurgicaly superior. That`s why in Europe they abandonned pattern-welded swords after they gained the ability to forge homogenous blades of great strength. The diminutive tsuba isn`t much to protect the hand. Even the early crufiform swords offered more safety. The katana is no more agile or quick than a European broadsword. Try a well-made one, not repro-trash and you`ll see. As mentioned, there are several advantages to a double-edged sword.

I don`t know why all this Oriental stuff has this aura of being wholy superior to the old Western methods and gear. Maybe it`s because Western styles and weapons are more pragmatic, most people will never actualy use this stuff in combat so the ceremony is attractive. Hell, the much vaunted Filipino Martial Arts are as Spanish as Filipino, actualy more Spanish. I have seen fight manuals pre-dating contact with the Easterners that prove this. If Europeans can`t fight or make weapons, why have we been able to overcome them in war?

Before anybody screams racist, I better let you know I am not White. Or Hispanic. I am a member of a little understood, little heard of European race whose total numbers are less than most small countries, or even some U.S. states. My ancestors were not the ones you read about in the Western history books. We have however, influenced and been influenced by the major races. It pains me to see people reject their own martial heritage, dismiss it as inferior. I`m not saying don`t practice Oriental styles. There are things to be learned there too. But there is this almost overwhelming ignorance of our own past. I`m sure there are many of Asian descent in these forums. No disrespect. I`m sure you probably understand where I`m coming from. I`m sure you would think it sad if your people turned their backs on their heritage, held it in low esteem. I hear this is happening in some places.
 
I agree with your assessment that Oriental weaponry has been largely over-mystified in the minds of some blade enthusiasts, and we must assess any blade from a functional perspective. I would, however, like to point out that there is a reason that the curved sword has dominated nearly every metal-using culture besides Western Europe. It's a simple matter of edge geometry. The curved blade presents a steeper bevel and this is further enhanced by the angle of its curvature as it meets the target. It is far better to have one good edge than two poor ones, unless perhaps your intended target is largely covered in metal that will defeat any sword and dull it in the process should you miss flesh (hence the trend towards axes and picks with the rise of armor).

As you pointed out, historically swords are more than weapons of pure function. They are religious items, symbols of a culture, and the item in which the warrior must place his soul. This has led them to a variety of designs that have little to do with function, and made innovation a slow and convoluted process (who wants to go into a battle trying out some strange new kind of sword?) I see the European hangup with the cruciform blade as a prime example of this. Only repeated slaughter at the hands of the Turks or Mongols was able to make Europeans see the merit of the curved blade, and even then only for men on horseback. Luckily today we are more functionally-minded.

If you need a second edge because you don't have time to sharpen a blade of modern alloys, I suggest you need to take a break from killing hundreds of people. If your blade is being dulled from utility like chopping wood or cutting vines, that second edge is a huge danger to yourself. Others may feel differently, but I would always choose the curved, single-edged sword.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
I get a little carried away on this topic, it`s pretty close to my heart. Again, I want to make clear I intend no disrespect to other martial cultures.

As far as curved edges enhancing slashing effect, you`re dead on. You can see on a lot of early bowies how the entire edged is curved, though to a lesser degree than the belly.

First off, a little historical clarification. If you`re talking Turks, Mongols and crufiorm swords, you`re talking Attila and The Crusades. The difficulty Western armies found facing the both the Mongols and the Saracens were the fact they had mounted bowmen. In fact, the Mongols were so connected with their horses they were rummored to be incapable of walking. Moreover, during the age of the cruciform sword the primary weapon of the mounted warrior in Europe was the lance, which will out do a scimitar any day. After the age of the lance came the age of the saber, which was also intended to be used for making point in a cavalry charge. Check your history, the Classical/Dark Age/Medieval warrior had no trouble overcoming his enemy in a toe-to-toe fight. I will readily concede the mounted bowman was an excelent idea. After we invented firearms(late 13-early1400`s, shortly after The Crusades), we came up with the dragoon. But let`s avoid the "firecracker" debate. Fireworks and firearms are functionaly different. I`ll have to check, but I`m pretty sure it ends up the Moors and Saracens weren`t using radicaly curved blades during The Crusdaes anyway. Also, non-European, metal-sword-using culture that independently developed cruciform weapons; the Tuareg. I don`t think anyone would have the audacity to claim the Tuareg were not fierce and proficient warriors. If you don`t know them, they`re African. Their name comes up with Timbuktu a lot. For that matter, check out the Indian pata, it`s got a wierd hilt, but the same blade-style. Hey, actualy, there are many cruciform swords in Near-and-Far-Eastern cultures, or at least ones that have the same style of blade we`re discussing, hilted according to local fashion.

Now, there were two well-known curved swords in Europe, previous to contact with Far-Eastern cultures. The marchione(sp?) of the Greeks, also known as the espada falcata to the Spanish, who originated the style(they also brought the Romans the gladius, by the way). Note that this sword-length weapon is the source of inspiration for the kukri, universaly regarded as the de facto chopping blade. There was also the falchion. A wide-bladed, curved weapon popular for litteraly centuries.

Two things you`re not taking into consideration, "cruciform" refers to a double-edged sword with a crossgaurd that only extends fore-and-aft of the hand(knuckles and wrists). The numerous variations on basket hilts are not known as cruciform. They supplanted cruciform as they provided better protection. Second, the fact that many true cruciform swords are tapered off towards the point. This also makes the edge come into contact with, well, whatever`s in it`s way, at an increased angle, increasing the effectiveness of the slash while not deminishing the ability to thrust, but rather increasing it. You must also keep in mind that these swords are nowadays called broadswords because, they are. Their increased breadth allows them to have two edges and still maintain a thin cross-section for cutting. Like a machete(descended from the espada ancha, I believe), where the slim cross-section allows it to slice with ease. Obviously, this is MUCH more pronounced on a machete.

I think upon reflection you would choose to withdraw the idea of the evolution of arms and armor in Europe as slow. I`m not going to go too much deeper on this one, it`s readily apparent.

I have no problem using a double-edged knife, or axe, for utility. Their are certain things you can`t do, split wood or use it as a draw knife, but hell, even Daniel Boon used a double edged knife for utility. Now, you wouldn`t saw he didn`t know what he was doing, would you? I have been playing around with several(including one that looks a lot like and espada ancha/the sword you came up with) fascimiles of swords made from plywood to get a feel for what it`d be like to lug around. Honestly,I would love to cary a sword, but considering an M-16a2 rifle is the primary weapon of the American soldier these days, and the sword would not see a whole lot of duty, I find it to be a bit out of place for me. I`ll keep the knife though!

Closing statement;

I think that the reasons why the Oriental styles have supplanted the Western styles are threefold, 1. the "familiarity breeds contempt" issue, 2. they are more readily accessable(i.e. the ever-present strip-mall karateka), 3. the Western arts have moved on. As much as I hate to say it, blades and bare-knuckles are not the most-effective weapons today. Martial arts are "martial" as they are, or were suitable for war. The reality(though it blows my Don Quixote romanticism out of the water), is that the firearm is the martial weapon of the Western, and to be sure, the Eastern, well hell! The whole world! Upon reflection, I believe American Gun-Fu, the pistol, rifle, and shotgun-craft tought at places like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch represent modern Western martial arts. However, this does not diminish my desire to re-vitalize, and train in, more "traditonal" Western styles. In fact, I am presently engaged in translating a fight manual that deals particularly with the blade-arts of my ancestors.

Like I said, this issue tends to get me riled-up, so if I wrote anything that is derogatory or insulting beyond simple criticism or point/counter-point that is necessary in any debate, I apologize. I bear no ill-will towards Eastern-stylists, non-Westerners, or the party this reply is aimed at. Peace.
 
Well said. I did not mean to imply that curved swords were nonexistent in Europe before Eastern contact, or that no other cultures developed cruciform blades; I merely said that curved blades were dominant in other cultures while straight, double-edged blades were dominant in Europe.

Specifically, you are quite correct about the Espada, though I want to check with Mr. Burton's text about the Falchion; I had thought this was a later design, and primarily a hunting piece, anyhow. Similarly, the Chinese (who seemed to have more variety of weapons than the rest of the world combined) certainly developed the cruciform blade independently of Europe, but it was not the primary from of sword employed in most cases. I do not recall a pata with this blade style, but I will have another look. My point,again, was not one of complete exclusion of one blade style for east and west, but a clear prevalence of the curved blade outside of Western Europe.

I certainly did overstate the impact these blades had in the hands of the Turks, but weren't the Mongol invasions what led to the adoption of the saber by European forces? I always saw this as a clear case of "if you can't beat 'em, copy 'em." Cavalry of a modern aspect seems directly descended from the saber-weilding horsemen of the east, and not the lance-bearing western cavalry.

Regarding utility, I am uneasy with a double-edged blade over 10" because I feel its weight might make it difficult to stop if I should be chopping and hit a hard object, sending the back edge rebounding towards me. As I said about my piece above, it can take a back edge, but I wouldn't recommend it unless it is to serve mainly as a weapon. I think that the age of swords may not be over, but that the modern sword must have a primary utility use and serve as a weapon secondarily; this makes it a fundamentally new thing from the traditional sword in most cultures.

I'll chalk this one up to personal preference, but I do feel that there are good reasons to recommend the curved, single-edged blade that have nothing to do with Eastern-centrism.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
As another Iaido student, I have to say that, for me, the Japanese Katana reigns supreme. It's form has evolved over nearly a millennium of civil war and lends itself equally to slashing and thrusting while also having the perfect radius for drawing and cutting in a single motion. I don't need to comment on the point design, as it's been copied by well nigh every knife maker on the planet.

One version of the Katana that has some potential for actual use, and is easily acquired is the "Gunto" katana made around WWII. They're fairly inexpensive, the length is reasonable (24"-26") and they can easily be refitted with any style of handle, guard, and scabbard imaginable. The cheaper ones are machine made and oil tempered while the better ones are hand made, laminated, and differentially tempered. I'm not suggesting that you go out and buy a valuable antique sword and start hacking up the neighbor's banana tree!!! I'm talking about the WWII "junk" swords that many dealers have lying in heaps at gun shows for $300 to $600. Those blades are pretty decent and would make a great project. I've used an average one for test cutting for years now and it's held up beautifully. I've added G10 handle slabs, a small wakizashi sized junk hand guard that I picked up at ebay for $50 and refinished matt black, and a flat Kydex sheath. Looks very modern and "tactical." I rub the blade down with a tuf cloth and it stays rust free. BTW, this is not my Iaido sword.
 
Now, I don`t mean to be condescending(I`m not even quite sure what that means) but the idea of the saber being copied from the Mongols is way off. The Mongols did their thing back when Rome was still the dominant force in the area. Also note, the Romans defeated the Mongols. It was a tough fight, though. The Mongols were known for horse-mounted archers. Like I said, even the Germanic Tribes could give the Mongols what-for close-in. You`ve got good warriors fighting good warriors on equal footing. It was the maneuver advantage of the horse-mounted bowmen that gave the Mongols an edge. The saber wasn`t adopted as the pre-emminent sword untill the 18-19th century. Way after all that happened. Even then, it was employed in a thrusting manner, like unto the lance, well as far as the cavalry were concerned. In fact, the lance itself lasted well into the age of the saber and the firearm. Lancers were present in WWI. Of course, it had turned back into a light, maneuverable weapon by then, since plate armor had all but vanished. Actualy, the notion of heavy horse held on until the 19th century. Shoot, what was the name of the battle? `Can`t recall. Check out "The Winged Hussars" in relation to some battle in Poland or Hungary, early-mid 19th century. The Winged Hussars took their objective, but had taken staggering losses from the cannon present on the field, and the unit was disbanded after the battle. Western cavalry has been very Western, well, forever. Even today, what could be more Western than tanks and helicopters?

Well, I do not believe the falchion is as old as the espada falcata. I know there are examples from the Dark Ages, and there wasn`t much of an East-West thing going on then. Yeah, I do believe it`s often referred to as a hunter`s or woodsman`s sword, but then again the bill, the quintesential medieval-English weapon was a farm implement. Falchions did get combat use.

Having been a swordsman before I was a knifes(?)man, I have owned both cruciform(my favorite) and assorted curved(I like tulwars) swords. They were good, accurate examples made by competent smiths. The tulwar outcut the "broadsword", but not by as wide a margin as you`d think. And this was at the expense of being an effective thruster. Something to consider is that most Western blade styles are thrust-oriented. Slashes are used to set up a thrust to end the fight. In the 15-16th centuries a cruciform sword of wide, thick blade, diamond in cross-section and sharply tapered, was developed soley as a thrusting weapon against plate armor. Most Eastern styles are slash-oriented.

You might be getting the idea of later Western cavalry being Eastern in flavor from the Cossacks, who indeed were horseman, implementing something that looked quite like a gaurdless saber(brings back memoeries of the Roman spatha) in a slashing style. These guys were tough. They were Eastern, but that`s Eastern-Eroupean. They could well have been Mongol-influenced. In the B.C. days/early A.D.'s, they pushed way up into Asia. They had reasonably established settlements too. Is Cathar the word I`m looking for? I can`t remember, but there was a big deal over the ruins of one of these settlements a while ago. And it did begin with "C".

If you would be intrested in checking out a more utility-oriented Western sword, I again point to the espada ancha of the Spanish New World colonies, especialy Mexico. They are unique to the new world, and the ancestors of the machete. Some transitional forms look a lot like what you had made up. You`ll have to dig for info. An easy lead is there`s an "ethnographic edged weapons" page somewhere. I think it`ll come up on Yahoo. The sword has not seen the end of it`s usefulness. I believe the shift toward peace-keeping and urban conflicts is going bring about a re-birth of close-combat techniques and weapons. I would like to see the sword be part of that. But it`s not my call. On the civilian front, if we lose the guns, but can keep the blades, I can see the sword becoming the home-defense weapon of choice. Thrusting has an edge on the slash in cramped-quarters...

Here`s just an observation...

The fight manual I`m translating deals with knives, not swords, and was written in 1849. I`m working on the prolog right now, and the author right off the bat goes into how it may not be well-recieved as it deals with weapons associated with scoundrels and ruffians. However, the precepts of their use are important to learn, so you can both wield the weapons yourself, and know what to expect from an adversary.

What I find intresting is that way back, swords were the gentleman`s weapon. The knife was the weapon of the dis-reputable. Now that swords are no longer practical for daily wear, or use, let`s face it, the knife has been granted the position of honor and the sword is a mere anachronism. My how things change! I think that the man-against-man nature of the blade will always accord it a status of honor, no matter what form it takes. A favorite line from "The Wind and the Lion"(awesome movie!) with Sean Connory as some kind of Arab chieftain went something like this; "When my people fight, we fight face to face with sword in hand. When this is not possible, we use rifles. However, when your people fight, they use rifles that fire many times and kill from a great distance." When speaking of Teddy Roosevelt(THE best president EVER) he says something to the effect; " You are like the Wind, far-reaching and knowing no limits to your domain. I, like the Lion, roar in defiance, but must stay in my territory". Damn, that was a good movie, I`ll have to rent it again! Some good scimitar action too!

Parting shot;

You`re all right, Corduroy. If we met face to face, I feel we could be friends.

[This message has been edited by Snickersnee (edited 04 May 1999).]
 
mvforge.com

This is Howard Clark's web sight. Go check it out. Verry informative and a helluva read. I had a 28" katana made for me by Howard (not cheap $750.00 w/habaki)and its beutiful, nicley balanced too. He knows his stuff. Don Fogg goes to this man for metalurgical questions. So ya know if Don holds him in high esteem you can't go wrong.
smile.gif

Cheers!

[This message has been edited by BOB26 (edited 04 May 1999).]
 
Oh yeah,
Almost forgot to tell ya that Howard sometimes has specials on hand i.e. The person he made the sword for either didn't want it, had another made, or they just put in an order and didn't pay for it (those are the worst kind of people). But any way, he has those swords for sale at a discount.
Good hunting!

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The spirit grows, strengt is restored by wounding
 
There's some confusion about military history here. The Mongol invasion came centuries after the fall of Rome and centuries before the adoption of the modern cavalry saber. A good site for this kind of discussion is Http://www.netsword.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi -- it uses the same UBB software as this site; you'll feel right at home.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
P.S. Swords both ancient and modern are discussed there, as well as military history.

-Cougar :{)
 
This is my first time here and yall cover a lot of area quickly.....
...to the guy looking for a custom working sword/long knife....try phil hartsfield in CA., prices are high and so is the quality...and if you want a katana, the best is made by Frances Boyd--in Ca...(those are my opinions...)although with Mr. Boyd have a big wallet..--He has developed blades which have been compared to masaume(sp), .......
....on the topics blade style and type...whoooee---thats a debate there and yes its true that the curved blade cuts better and I found the observation that a straight standard being tapered gives an equal or similiar cut interesting(is that on thrusting?),
there is a fella in waltersboro S.C. name of Walter Brend, who makes knives of the using variety and a couple go large in size...one his model two(?), has a curved blade and the back of the blade has serious serrations....it might be what your looking for......

great discussions....Ill have to come back and learn more......especially concerning the european style of fighting...dont know much about it....an as far as martial arts (karate,,,etc....coming from the east...could be.....but hannibals troops, had a very similiar concept as well I believe did the greeks....and there is savate from the french....I think everycountry developed fighting techniques and would take whatever worked from what group to another...one other thing, I think if ya looked at the development of sword making you would probably find the metallurgy of china att very high as china and japan are very close its quite possible that Japan copied some of the metallurgy from china it is know that the wealthy in some of these island nations..okinawa etc. traveled to china to study...so its probably not to far off......fubsy.
 
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