Modern COMBAT swords - who, where, what and, how much?

Snickersnee, I'd like to here more about the manual you are translating.

I'm a a student of the Filipino Arts and have instilled in me a great appreciation for all forms of fighting especially blade fighting. Highly vaunted perhaps but again only because of availability. The people I learned from all have swords from Asia,Europe, and the US. In fact, one of my former teacher's favorite weapons is a pata, another keeps a Persian Mace near his British Naval cutlass and Chinese and Filipino weaponry. One of the concepts I've learned was being able to wield any sword before me so I have no prob learning/touching/playing with any blade. My own personal collection is pretty haphazard.

Honestly, there are plenty of practioners of martial arts who don't believe in the superiority of the Asian arts over Non Asian arts but appreciate tactics and well made cutlery. Alas, the ugly face of advertising must always stick it's nose in combative teachings. I won't bother to mention the various magazine ads that allow us to be 'lethal weapons' for $99.95.

Thanks for your time,
smoke
 
Fusby;

Tapering a blade increases it`s ability to cut in much the same way as curving it does. By increasing the angle at which the edge makes contact with what it`s cutting. An experiment illustrating this can be done readily, if you have the courge; Take a sharp knife and press it straight down on your hand. You will see it takes great pressure to cut. Now, place the edge at an alngle to the hand and press down. It should open you up pretty quick. This is what both curves and tapers are doing. Incedently, if you slide it across your hand, you will have a draw-cut. In order to cut efficiently, the edge must be moving at an angle to what ever is being cut.

The difference between a tapered and curved blade is that the curved blade sacrifices ability to thrust for added ability in draw-cutting. The double-edged tapered blades common in Europe excelled in shearing AND thrusting, though the ability to draw-cut was diminished. Keep in mind that the broadsword is a sword, and it does cut like a monster. The combination of shearing and thrusting was much preferable in the West, where, frankly, the best armors were being made and used. The Samurai armors(haramaki, right?) did well enough against the native weapons, but cannot be expected to withstand what a 15-16th century field-plate harness could. And anybody who has worn a suit of field plate can tell you they are light and agile. None of that "can`t stand up if you fall down", "need a crane to get on a horse non-sense" is true. I wore one made for a friend of similar stature, and even I was suprised. I could run, jump, do cartwheels. Now, tournament armor is another story, but it`s not for war anyway.

Also note that the katana cuts best with the last third of the blade, while the "broadsword" cuts best with the first third(forte). Oh yeah, and there is a point where further tapering will reduce shearing ability, as it will increase edge profile, but makes for a mean thruster. These were responsible for bringing about the erroneous assumption that all tapered blades cut less-well that parralel-edged swords.

Note that draw-cuts are ineffective against modern balistic armor, while thrusts penetrate with relative ease(you can buy the U.S. kevlar flak jacket, roughly Level-II, for 200 bucks to check this out). I think that tips the scales in favor of the Western tools. Especialy when you take in the utility issue. After all, do you want to shear or draw-cut that log in half? Well, unless of course you`re uneasy with double-edges. Then I reccomend the espada ancha. Won`t thrust any better then a katan though.

Smoke;

The manual I`m translating deals with the blade arts of my people, it`s title is Manual del Baratero. It was written in 1849, while no earlier texts survive that outline the actual methods, there are many references to the art going back to the 15th-16th century. I`m still working on the prolouge, it`s in Spanish, but being a century and a half old, many of the words are irregular forms. This slows things down somewhat. I have skipped ahead to the meat of the manual, the techniques are not unlike those in James Keating`s Crossada video. Modified, of course to accomadate the prefered edged weapon of my ancestors, the Navaja. The navaja was a large(7-9 inch balde) folding knife, that came in double-edged and bowie-like blade styles. Aside from different lockwork, materials, and decortation, it reminds one of Cold Steel`s Vaquero Grande. There were sword versions too, with 18 inch(or sometimes more) blades. They date back to the 15th century. The lock itself works like a ratchet, and makes cool "clicking" sounds when you open it. Probably the first true "mega-folder", oldest stlye I`ve seen anyway. All the replicas I`ve seen are poor quality with bad locks, however my Grandfather`s was quite strong. The style these fight manuals are written in, wether they be sword, empty hand, or knife, tend to be more about concepts rather than a highly-structured, paint-by-number, deal. Showing how and why techniques work, and in what context they work, but leaving it more or less up to the student to put it all together in a fight. While flow drills are practiced, anyone who has studied Western cut-and-thrust sword-styles can tell you just how flow oriented these are, there isn`t anything too much like a "kata". But keep in mind, we`re dealing with diverse arts from diverse cultures here. They all have a "Western" flavor, but they all have their own unique aspects. Even from master-to-master in the same style. An excelent recsource for this stuff is the Historical Armed Combat Association. John Clements has put out two excelent books on sword-styles through Paladin, and there are links on his site to many translated, online, manuals. Mainly sword oriented, but a number of them go into other weapons and empty hand techniques. I believe that`s www.HACA.com, sorry, can`t remember the ubb thing. And also check out Comtech`s ABC`s. For that matter, a number of those SCA guys know their stuff. I could never hack the role-playing aspect, though.

If you study the FMA`s, then you are already familiar with European-style martial arts, wether you know it or not. The Filipino`s adopted these arts from the conquering Spanish. While they`ve changed a bit over the years, and there is probably a little bit of an ifluence from native arts, everything that makes Arnis and Escrima what they are is Andalusian. Little bit of etymology(sp?), escrima is a Spanish word meaning brandish, or more recently, fencing. It comes from the Germanic word, skirmjan, meaning to brandish or wield. Most of the techniques, being Spanish, have Spanish names too. Spain was a focal point for European blade-arts. They were also known for the weapons they made. Unfortunately, the modern export stuff is pretty bad. There are still many exceptional smiths in the country though. I had the opportunity to check out some weapons brought back by a friend from Toledo. I resolved to make the pilgrimage myself one day.

I`m a fan of both the katar and the pata. And anybody who says you can`t slash with one is stupid, or doesn`t understand weapons. Sure the technique is different, but it works. When I got into swords, there wasn`t anything about combat-grade Western bladework out there. I litteraly spent years going over books of arms and armor for the illustrations, tapestries, woodcuts, effigies and facades. It took a real long time, but I managed to put it all together. Fortunately, I have a natural understanding of flow techniques, which are absolutely vital to using the Western blades. When one of these things starts moving, one technique leads to another and another, and pieces of your enemies just fly, or maybe they were carboard tubes and 2x4`s. Anyway, VERY cool.

[This message has been edited by Snickersnee (edited 05 May 1999).]
 
Oh whoops! I said "Mongols" instead of "Huns" I get my barbarians crossed sometimes.

The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Vol.1 The History of the Roman Empire from A.D.180 to A.D. 395, by Edward Gibbon

Page 899 Chapter XXVI(365-395 A.D.)

"The Mongolian Race.-The Mongolians are the least numerous of the four, and were confined to a relatively small teritory till the time of their national hero, Gengkis Kahn, when they first occur in history. Even in his armies and those of his succesors, most of the soldiers were Turks, while the officers were Mongolians. With the exception of a few scattered hordes, the Mongolians are still confined to the country North of the Great Wall of China, and westward of the Manchu country.

Genghis didn`t arive on the scene till the 13th century.


[This message has been edited by Snickersnee (edited 06 May 1999).]
 
Blasted technology.

Snickersnee, the katar. Yes, lovely dagger, I have a small puncture scar from it on my left elbow. I would love one w/ a cobra guard. Yes, kata is now such an ugly word but you are correct that the Euro arts don't really have it but emphasis drills and flow.
I'm familiar w/ Mr. Keating and Clemments, the latter's essays are similar to what my teachers have said. Andalusia, the area between Spain and Portugal, didn't know about that nor did I know about Escrima's other origin as a word. I do know that Escrimee or L'Escrimee is the French word for fencing. Navaja I am familiar w/ though I've never seen one up close.

One of my old teachers can be seen working out w/ a Indonesian buckler and a Pata vs. a Kampilan as well as the double stick. We have no qualms about mixing and matching weapons in practice, modern or ancient. Recently, I used a Euro designed modern dagger and an Indian Khanjar while my teacher used a Katar. Do I feel I'm being bad or violating a rule. Nope. I'm also looking for old books as well and it wasn't long ago that I was shocked by seeing a print of a Mongol horseman w/ a Chinese type broadsword and a mace along w/ a rifle. I'm fortunate to have a few xerox prints from an old Highlander type manual. I have never heard of the Manual of Baratero. Movie wise "The Mission" w/ DeNiro and "The Duel" (Carradine and Keitel?) was not bad.

Are you from Andalusia? Are you a Roma/Romanichel? I'm sorry, I didn't see that listed in your posts.
 
Yes, I have always valued cross-training with other weapons and styles/stylists. I have not ever really had a guru/sensei/maestro. When I was young, my mother arranged for me to take karate lessons. I enjoyed them , the instructors were all very good people. However, it came time one day for me to attend a tournament. Of course I was nervous, as I was shy, but what I would see that day turned me off to the Eastern arts and the associated martial arts scene.

I was young, but had been in a number of schoolyard fights. I knew what the "real thing" looked like. What they passed off as "demonstrations" were nothing less than pure fantsy! They had a woman in a coat stand in the middle of the floor. Several "thugs" started to circle around her. She stripped off her coat, revealing a gi(sp?) and proceded to defeat each one as they attacked individualy, with the worst form I had ever seen. If this was a play, it would not have bothered me, but this was martial arts! A theatricized demonstration is acceptable, but this was non-sense!

I am not implying that all Eastern stylists and competions are like this, since then I`ve been to one or two expo`s and saw much better,but this is the event that set me on my path.

Those who I have learned from have always stressed the theory of weapons use, and how to apply it to different arms. While I may not re-create the authentic "native" style, I can wield any melee weapon effectively. However, my left hand is only good for gross-motor functions, making two-weapon forms inaccessable to me. I am proficient at using it for a checking hand.

One of the marks of a practical warrior-culture is the adaptation of effective weapons from other cultures. I believe this is what lead to the Japanese banning tradional weapons/arts as they started to re-integrate into the modern world. However, I think it`s a shame when any people lose their heritage. An area of intrest, but which I have no leads in, is AmerInd fighting arts. The North American Indians were some of the bravest warriors in all the world. They put up a truely valiant fight against Western expansion, more so than any other peoples in my opinion. I have always felt in this older and wiser age we should grant them full-sovereignity over some good land. It would be impractical to return all their natives lands, but from one warrior culture to another, I believe they deserve this much.

I`m completely lost when it comes to firearms, though. I can handle a rifle all right, as I had fallen-in with para-military types for a while, but my pistolcraft is sub-standard. Thankfuly, "street" encounters, even with guns, are close-up affairs.

------------------
"One of God`s Prototypes. A powerful mutant, never even considered for mass-production.
Too weird to live. Too tough to die."

 
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