modern mountain man rifle

I must agree with Rob...that Savage Scout in .308 makes a great "mountain man" rifle! Quick handling, more than adequate punch and with the scout scope, it can reach out further and more accurately than irons. Love that oversized bolt handle too:thumbup:

ROCK6
 
yoz's friend said:
let me just restate that. if you where going to actually be a mountain man in western canada what ONE rifle would you bring. you are going to live off the land and need a do it all rifle. you have grizzley and black bear, moose, elk, ram, wolf. so i generally dont think you would want a ak,ar or any assault type rifle for that matter. youu have dense forrest and wide open valleys and mountain range. missing your game means you dont eat.originally i was going to pick a marlin guide gun in 45-70 or 450.(which i still like) but im wondering if a high powered bolt gun say 300 win mag would be more suited to that paticular area and game you would be facing.
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On e again, mountain men did it with frontstuffers. 100 yards was a good shot. 150 yards really good. 200 if you were Davy flippin' Crockett (no offense meant, just rolled off the tongue so well). They did it with what would today be considered a very short ranged weapon, in the Rockies, both the Canadian and US Rockies. People from the stone age to modern times hunt successfully with longbows, recurves, selfbows, etc. Where 40 yards is a LONG shot. You do not "need" a long range rifle, unless you are not a good hunter.

A mountain man did not only eat big game, but trapped small game and fish (gill nets, trotlines, etc).

So, if you want to "do it" like a mountain man, you don't need a beanfield rifle, nor do you need a .22 because they wouldn't waste a shot on small game.

What you MAY need (and it's very unlikely, but if you need it, you need it) is to stop an angry animal beit a bear, moose, what have you. They are big animals and stopping a charge is much harder than hunting from ambush. Light calibers won't cut it. I'd recommend, once again, the .45-70. The LEVERevolution ammo does better out of longer barrels, so the 1895CB may be a better choice than a Guide Gun -- empty weight is only 1.25 pounds more than the 1895G -- and the CB lets you load up to 10 rounds.

If you just want a more modern cartridge, the .30'06 is very available and I'd again recommend a Rem 700 BDL, so you have backup iron sights. With 180-gr pills, you'll whallop anything you hit.

Finally, you just wouldn't be Canadian to not consider an Enfield. The .303 lacks the power of the '06 or .45-70, but is still very respectable with 180 gr pills, and the Enfield is so fast to operate, you can pump out the rounds pretty fast. IF it's reliable enough for your Eskimo rangers, it'll do as a Mountain Man rifle!
 
What's the going rate these days for a Savage Scout? I wanted one of those several years ago and never picked one up, still want one though...
 
That Savage Scout and lever gun of Robert's look awesome!
I may actually pick up a 100 year old 14 gauge Stevens single shot ,shotgun as my old style bush gun. The thing looks like a 100 year old gun but works excellent with nice tight lock up and is only 350$ from a buddy. Because it is a ridiculous pain in the butt to source shells in 14 gauge it is an antique in Canada and needs no liscence.

I don't agree that the old timers did not have long range rifles. in fact it was the Kentuky
rifles used by US mountain men in the civil war that helped clue in the military that long range aimed fire was useful militarily. However the Brits had rifle units for years before that so the US can't take credit for it.

The Buffalo rifles of the mid 1800's were also long range powerful rifles.
 
SpookyPistolero said:
What's the going rate these days for a Savage Scout? I wanted one of those several years ago and never picked one up, still want one though...
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Actually several of the original versions are up for sale quite often on gunbrokers for $300-400. I have the newer version with their accutrigger and it was just over $450.

It's a good rifle and I really like Rob's modifications...he keeps screwing me like that; showing me great pictures of modifications...I still want similar modifciations that Rob did on his Marlin .45-70 lever gun:mad: :D

ROCK6
 
yoz's friend said:
let me just restate that. if you where going to actually be a mountain man in western canada what ONE rifle would you bring. you are going to live off the land and need a do it all rifle. you have grizzley and black bear, moose, elk, ram, wolf.
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Thanks for reiterating the parameters of the scenario. I'm going to stick to my gun. But let me be clear, I am not an expert. Especially when it come to elk.

I did some on-line 'research' looking for recommendation from Rocky Mountain outfitters. I have focused on Elk because they are big and tough. Moose might be bigger and tougher. When it comes to Grizzlies, I want all the gun I can get.

Here are a few citations from some experts:

From : Elkhunter
"The most popular calibers for Elk hunting are the .270, the 7mm mag, the .308, the .30-06, the .300 mag, and the .338 magnum with several others squeezed in between.

If you are planning to buy a new rifle for Elk hunting, you should consider the bolt action. It has a rigid action, simple and speedy firing pin fall, and precise breeching which makes the bolt action the most reliable and accurate. You should also consider one with a synthetic stock. They are tough and the weather changes will not affect them, and they are lighter. ...

Any hunter planning an Elk hunt should sight his rifle in for long range shooting, and practice till you have it just where you want it. I use a Browning 7mm mag. and use my own loads with a 175 grain bullet, and have it sighted in 3" high at 100 yards. That allows me to hold dead on out to 350 yards."


From: Elk Hunting New Mexico

"Higher caliber rifles are more forgiving and allow hunters that do not make the perfect shot to still get their trophies. Realistically you could shoot an elk with almost any caliber of rifle if you were a good enough shot. You would have to be world class at shot placement. Since not many of us are, it is best if we stick with the higher caliber rifles. Some of the most popular New Mexico elk hunting rifles are the .308, 300 mag, 7mm, .270 and .30-06."


From: Bear Paw Outfitters

"Shots often range from 100 to 300+ yards so sight rifles dead on at 200 yards. 7mm or or larger calibers are best."


From: Rifle Shooter

"Most of my mule deer have been taken between 150 and 300 yards, so the average shot is a bit longer. Given a choice, I prefer not to shoot at longer ranges and avoid it whenever possible. But I do know how to do it. Several of the longest shots I have ever made have been on mule deer, and while my best buck was taken at close range, my second and third-best bucks were taken beyond 400 yards. ...

To me the "best of the best" cartridges for elk are the 8mm Remington Magnum and the fast .33's from .338 Winchester on up. All shoot flat enough for the longest shots that should be taken on elk, and all have the frontal area, bullet weight, and energy to take elk with authority--with any well-placed shot from any angle. ...

So the fast .30s are my idea of the best setup for the West's ultimate combo, elk and mule deer. As velocity increases recoil goes up, but cartridges from the .300 H&H on up to the .300 Ultra Mag remain fairly manageable in a rifle weighing perhaps eight pounds."
 
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Rotte said:
What are you sayin'? :confused: :rolleyes: :D
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I'm saying, quite plainly, that since guys with GOOD HUNTING SKILLS regularly get within bow range, you don't need a beanfield rifle to hunt out west, so pick what appeals to you, rather than what others think you need.

All we can do is offer suggestions.
 
Rotte said:
Thanks for reiterating the parameters of the scenario. I'm going to stick to my gun. But let me be clear, I am not an expert. Especially when it come to elk.

I did some on-line 'research' looking for recommendation from Rocky Mountain outfitters. I have focused on Elk because they are big and tough. Moose might be bigger and tougher. When it comes to Grizzlies, I want all the gun I can get.

Here are a few citations from some experts:

From : Elkhunter
"The most popular calibers for Elk hunting are the .270, the 7mm mag, the .308, the .30-06, the .300 mag, and the .338 magnum with several others squeezed in between.

If you are planning to buy a new rifle for Elk hunting, you should consider the bolt action. It has a rigid action, simple and speedy firing pin fall, and precise breeching which makes the bolt action the most reliable and accurate. You should also consider one with a synthetic stock. They are tough and the weather changes will not affect them, and they are lighter. ...

Any hunter planning an Elk hunt should sight his rifle in for long range shooting, and practice till you have it just where you want it. I use a Browning 7mm mag. and use my own loads with a 175 grain bullet, and have it sighted in 3" high at 100 yards. That allows me to hold dead on out to 350 yards."


From: Elk Hunting New Mexico

"Higher caliber rifles are more forgiving and allow hunters that do not make the perfect shot to still get their trophies. Realistically you could shoot an elk with almost any caliber of rifle if you were a good enough shot. You would have to be world class at shot placement. Since not many of us are, it is best if we stick with the higher caliber rifles. Some of the most popular New Mexico elk hunting rifles are the .308, 300 mag, 7mm, .270 and .30-06."


From: Bear Paw Outfitters

"Shots often range from 100 to 300+ yards so sight rifles dead on at 200 yards. 7mm or or larger calibers are best."


From: Rifle Shooter

"Most of my mule deer have been taken between 150 and 300 yards, so the average shot is a bit longer. Given a choice, I prefer not to shoot at longer ranges and avoid it whenever possible. But I do know how to do it. Several of the longest shots I have ever made have been on mule deer, and while my best buck was taken at close range, my second and third-best bucks were taken beyond 400 yards. ...

To me the "best of the best" cartridges for elk are the 8mm Remington Magnum and the fast .33's from .338 Winchester on up. All shoot flat enough for the longest shots that should be taken on elk, and all have the frontal area, bullet weight, and energy to take elk with authority--with any well-placed shot from any angle. ...

So the fast .30s are my idea of the best setup for the West's ultimate combo, elk and mule deer. As velocity increases recoil goes up, but cartridges from the .300 H&H on up to the .300 Ultra Mag remain fairly manageable in a rifle weighing perhaps eight pounds."
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You are talking outfitter recomendations for some one who has spent a good deal of money, and has limmited time in unfamilar country. Who also is more than likely out of shape(now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black;) ) If your talking "mountain man" as in living in the woods. You are going to be more familar with the woods and animals. growing up in the hills, we either grew or shot 50%-60% of our food. When my chores were done I was in the woods. The middle school bus an hour later than my brothers and sister in grade school. It was 2 1/2 miles from the bus stop to the house over 4 wheel drive roads. We had a station wagon that was left at the mouth of the hollow in a church parking lot. I left my gun in the wagon and hunted home. I killed several deer on the way home with a single shot 410 or .22 . There is a who lot of difference in looking for a once in a life time trophy in country you have never seen and ghosting through woods you know like the back of you hand looking for an eating deer or elk . By the way I can hit 100 pound deer at 250 yards with a 45-70 A 300-1000 pound elk should not be a problem
Roy
 
I can't believe I'm the only one that mentioned a 7mm-08. WTF?

One do it all rifle in the woods of Canada? What could come close to this caliber??

It has superb accuracy (except in Ruger M77). Has enough punch to kill anything with a properly placed shot-- hence the practicing. It has the recoil of, like, a .243 Win. (in other words, minimal)-- so shots should be easy to place and follow up.

It is flatter shooting and retains greater punch than the .308 at long distances. It's a short action rifle. Smaller rifles are lighter.

And it is not so overkill that it would destroy smaller game.

7mm-08 is as good as it gets for wilderness round. (However, not the best all-around survival round because of it's lack of popularity vs .308 and .30-06 and .30-30.)
 
"You are talking outfitter recomendations for some one who has spent a good deal of money, and has limited time in unfamilar country. If your talking "mountain man" as in living in the woods, you are going to be more familar with the woods and animals...There is a whole lot of difference in looking for a once in a life time trophy in country you have never seen, and ghosting through woods you know like the back-of-your-hand looking for an eating deer or elk."

Roy -- Well said. Most people these days truly don't have time to live in the woods/mts, and hence their hunting style has adapted accordingly. Outfitters/guides recommend according to their likely modern-day hunting scenarios, which has little to do IMHO with a mountain man scenario. Enough gun yes (but that includes a .44 or a 30-30 if you're practiced/good), and commonly available ammo would be requisites in my mind. A lot of good thoughts and angles in this thread. As with everything, it depends on your own situation, skills, desires, and resources. If relying on a single rifle, with modern day materials, I'd be hard pressed to not choose a laminated wood stock (stronger and more durable than a traditional stock, better looking than a synthetic), stainless receiver and barrel (again, I clean my firearms religiously, but stainless still has an edge), in good ole 30'06 (what I personally started with, and hence there's an attachment... something most all of us have). I don't usually post, but have enjoyed this thread. Thanks!

schlots
 
komondor said:
I can't believe I'm the only one that mentioned a 7mm-08. WTF?
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Probably because it doesn't do anything better than the more popular .308, it's just a little different. The reason it was created was so that peoplw ho lived in countries that forbade citizens to own rifles chambered in a military cartridge could have something equivalent to a .308.


Not bashing it, just saying.
 
komondor said:
I can't believe I'm the only one that mentioned a 7mm-08. WTF?

One do it all rifle in the woods of Canada? What could come close to this caliber??

It has superb accuracy (except in Ruger M77). Has enough punch to kill anything with a properly placed shot-- hence the practicing. It has the recoil of, like, a .243 Win. (in other words, minimal)-- so shots should be easy to place and follow up.

It is flatter shooting and retains greater punch than the .308 at long distances. It's a short action rifle. Smaller rifles are lighter.

And it is not so overkill that it would destroy smaller game.

7mm-08 is as good as it gets for wilderness round. (However, not the best all-around survival round because of it's lack of popularity vs .308 and .30-06 and .30-30.)
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The main reason I would not choose 7mm-08 is that there isn't a mold for a cast bullet that I like for it. For the situation discibed I would want a cast lead bullet that I could load light for small game/ fur bearers. My little single shot 30-30 ackley improve shoots 113 grain cast bullets @1100 f.ps minute of squirrel out to 50-60 yards
170 grain cast grainers@1800 f.p.s. or 150 grain seirra fp's@2400 or factory 30-30's with in minute of deer out to 100 yards all with out changing the scope
Roy
 
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