Modern Scout knife - Need help

Sal Glesser

Sal Glesser

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DanMan began a thread looking for forumites involved in scouting. I thought it might be an excellent opportunity to gather input for a modern scouting knife.

Try to think like the young scout, but also add the watchful eye of the responsible adult.

What is important to have in a knife?
blades
tools
What quality level would be optimum?
What is the ideal size for the smaller hands?
Do we want more than one size?
What re the safety issues and how do we deal with them?
What materials would be ideal?
Do we need different features for Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts?
What price point will work best?

What will Work best for the young person being exposed to the Scouting experience?

Whadoyouthink?

Thanx for your help.

sal

--------------------------------------------------------------

We are all teachers and we are all students
 
There's a lot of stuff along the lines of integrating gadgets like lights and flint rods and things like that. I'm assuming that Spyderco wouldn't be going in that direction.

I think the big challenge is to make a knife that's safe. Boy scouts, if they're anything like I was, really want an 8" razor-sharp balanced blade for throwing with a saw in the back. And they'll buy one just as soon as they find the 20 dollars ;-)

Similarly, the multi-tool approach might make a lot of sense, but I don't know if there's anything a scouting multi-tool would have that a standard leatherman-type tool wouldn't. Perhaps.

So, anyway, safe-but-fun blades...

One thing which might sound dumb would be knife safety rules embossed on the handle as the grip: possibly even just pictures of safe cutting positions on one side, and unsafe ones on the other. Sounds like a minor thing, but I wonder if it might help?

For the handle: moulded in whistle seems like a no-brainer. A glow-in-the-dark FRN, or even just a glow-in-the-dark patch on the handle might keep youngsters amused. Hardware which can easily take a keyring, an lanyard, or some other kind of tie-down would be good too: a larger-than-normal lanyard hole, basically.

I think the main blade should be point-free, at least in some editions. A secondary blade with a point, but only an inch-or-so's length seems like a good compromise of functionality vs. safety. I wonder if a hawkbill-style blade might be less likely to slip off the material being cut, and also give a safety edge? Seems like a hawkbill blade with a rounded end would be fairly hard to cut yourself with.

Of course, at that point, there's the stigma of having an obviously-safety-minded knife when your friends are running around with folding hatchets. That wouldn't be any fun - I guess superior cutting power will have to make up for it.

For tools, I wonder if the right approach wouldn't be to put a hex-driver hole directly into the body of the knife, and sell a little kit with a variety of bits and a three inch extender rod. Have them if you want them. Have the sheath (an integral part of the design, I think) have space for the bits, but don't ship them as standard. Most folks won't want them, or will nick dad's hex bits if they need them ;-)

Put the bottle opener in the back of the main blade. Don't know where to put the can opener, but it's a Must Have. I wonder if the P38-type-opener could be built into the prying tool somehow...

Did I forget to mention the prying tool? Put a lump of steel at the other end of the knife from the blade which is untempered, and designed for opening paint cans. Make it part of the handle, basically. Scouts will pry, and they'll use the blade if they've got nothing else.

Can't think of anything else, and this sounds like a camel. Oh well!
 
I think that there are a number of things that a scout will generally want in a knife, but it will vary greatly from scout to scout and troop to troop. I know when I was in scouting probably the biggest thing was the "coolness" factor, so that you could compare how your knife looked compared to the other guys. Several scouts in my troop had CRKT M-16's, and most of them carried Gerber tools. So from my experience scouts will usually carry a single bladed knife as well as a multitool. Most scouts dont have the slightest clue about the different blade steels, but perhaps if a scout knife model was offered in two different blade steels with a clear explination of advantages and disadvantages of each in the catalog or website, for example 440A and 440C or something along those lines. I think scouts would be willing to pay around $30 dollars for a knife if they liked it, but much more than that and I think it would be a hard sell, unless it was clearly explained to them why they should pay for the better materials.
 
I think this is a great issue to discuss if Sal is seriously looking into producing this kind of knife. I would swear if I knew of Spyderco when I was in cub scouts and boy scouts my troop would have put the Swiss out of business. Anyhow, the good question to answer right off is what type...multi-tool like the spyderco wrench or single blade like a salt. I would think that a cross-bred is in order on this issue. Something along the lines of having a CE, or PE and SE blades with a saw blade. The style of a dyad enters into mind along with the snap-it type frn. A whistle would be nice additive to the handle and like my forumies have said the 'glow in the dark' aspect. I would hope that none of the blades or blade would have a point. I was very accident proned at that age and can show Sal the scars in Georgia if he wants some good stories and laughs. The rounded end of the Carbide tip assist would be a good style for the point, however, I do realize there are sometime where you need a tip to a knife to get into things like cutting ropes and what not. Maybe Sal or some of those reps from Spyderco such as his son can go visit a few local scouting groups and take a survey from them. After all they would be the ones this type of knife or tool would be aimed for use. I would buy one if it features most of the things I've mentioned above. Well, Sal let us know how it turns out (in O about two years or so). I figure that might be the quickest something like this could be put together unless your hinting at some sorta prototype you'll have in your pocket at 'Blade Show'. :cool:
 
Forget the Girl Scouts. They are so politically correct it hurts. My daughter is a junior girl scout. My wife is one of the leaders. I doubt any other girl in my daughter's troop has ever handled a knife (besides at the dinner table). Their campouts are glorified "sleep-overs." My daughter has learned far more at the deer lease. Girl Scouts are Sheeple...
 
Should have an easily manipulated lock on a useable length blade. Bearing in mind most localities specify a sub 3"-3.5" blade. Also it SHOULD have a bail and clip options. BTW, I use my Military at Scout Camp all the time. Very sheeple friendly.
 
A fixed blade of 4" with a nice handle, leather sheath and VG10 steel. The blade would need to have a spine of 4mm or so and a tough flat ground blade that can take prying and batoning.
 
Here's my thought. Either go the route Buck did and simply have a standard folder slightly modified as Official (as Buck basically did with the Bucklite), or start with the classic 4-blade frame.

Starting with the 4-blade frame allows for only a little tweakage, but we can still make something distinctively Spyderco. The blade length of a traditional BSA knife is about 2.875"ish, so maybe simply putting in the Delica or similar blade, then adding the usual can opener/bottle opener/awl around it. It retains the classic looks, which collectors like, while increasing performance, which Scouts like.

Don't forget the collectors, that would be a major mistake. For every new knife a Scout buys, collectors probably buy 2. Keeping it to the normal 4 blades would also keep prices down. Maybe Spyderco could collaborate with Camillus? Cam already makes the Official knife, and the two have worked together before.

If you go too wild, like I think some suggestions are quickly going, the knife either won't be bought, or won't be used.

Size would likely be 3 5/8" without a bail, or 3 3/4" with. Fits in a pocket well, and works well in all but the smallest hands.

I've been a Scout for going on 15 years, counting Cubs, I've used Scout knives for every inch of that, and I've served as a leader and helped others do the same. If you really want to know what'll fly in a Scout's hands, drop me a PM.
 
Sorry about the rant on the Girl Scouts earlier. I am an Eagle Scout. So is my brother. We both have been to Philmont. I have been a scoutmaster and my brother is one now. I have two nephews in Scouts now.

There are several niches:

1. Small fixed blade knife for campouts.

2. Small folder or multitool for carry.

3. Collectors editions, such as the one A. G. Russell carries.

4. Consider doing a small ax or hatchet. An ax with a spyderhole would be fun!
 
1. Non-locking sheepfoot or Wharncliff style main blade with extra-large, prominent hole, ergonomic choil and spine serrations (like Native); no more than a 2" cutting edge; and, the Boy Scout motto "Be Prepared!" printed on one side and "Golden, Colorado U.S.A. Earth" on the other side.

2. Locking 1" awl with sharp point and chisel edge (can double as a push-cut can opener if necessary).

3. Combination wood-saw and hook-degorger.

4. Highest-quality scissors in the industry.

5. Coarse file.

6. Philips screwdriver.

7. Medium flathead screwdriver.

8. Fine flathead screwdriver for glasses.

9. Heavy steel liner/frames with a Spyderco logo stamped on one side and a serial-number on the other.

10. Nominal scales made of jigged-bone, perhaps just a thin small oval (smaller than the liner/frames) pinned to the liner/frames on each side.

11. Nylon belt sheath, with cover and snap, and no pocket clip.

-----

I'd join the Scouts, even at 57 years of age, just to get one.
 
Great list of features, Ken, I'd just tweak a couple of thing, make the medium flat head a combo can-opener/bottle-opener/flat-head screwdriver and make the coarse file a combo file/diamond file/metal saw like the one on the leatherman wave. I'm abivalent about the blade style; having grown up with the SAK style spear point, it's hard to imagine a scout knife without it.
 
I could go with enkidu's improvements.
They would make the knife more compact.
I do like the coarse file, though.
It could oppose the diamond file, and perhaps enkidu meant that.

As for the blade shape, I normally don't care much for the sheepfoot and Wharncliff shape; and yet, for this application, I thought the lessened point of these shapes would make the knife more like a tool (Kiwi) than a weapon and thereby more politically correct.
 
Something modeled on an original Scout knife, with some modern Spyder twists. A locking spearpoint main blade, a small blade, wood saw, can opener, awl, screwdriver, tweezers. One hand opening of the main blade and a pocket clip would be ideal.
 
Great idea Sal, a spyderco scout knife would be too cool. I think everyone has had great idea for this.

As a Eagle Scout I've got a few scout knives and they hold a special place in my collection. Perhaps the coolest is my Eagle Scout pen knife. When I got it I thought it was cool but too small and cheap. Recently I found it at my parents and looked at it and realized it was made by Camillus knives and is actually a great little knife.

Machaira, My girlfriend is a life mamber of girl scouts, and a leader. I have to agree with you they don't teach the girls a third of what they need to. Hopefuly they change that in the future, there alot more life skills they need teach other than making girls ready to be housewives.

Well on to what I'd love to see as a Spyderco scout knife. Seeing that people have brought up a lot of great points, you all are to be commended. I think it should be a Scout knife not a multi-tool so it will look alot like the classic knife but with a spyder hole!

Whre to start?

-The knife should continue with the classic four blade style. One side of the knife should be locking like the Dyad. This way you have two locking features. The other should be a slipjoint. Muppets "glow-in-the-dark FRN" is great! I don't think the knife should have a clip, too tactical and I've seen kids loose knives in many interesting ways. But, it needs to have a bail. Scouts should carry the knife in a sheath.
-The main blade should be no longer than 3". I like the idea of some kind of spear or drop point shape, plain edge, spyder hole, and have a fingure coil. More utilitarian, some troops still teach skills such as skinning and preping animals for dinner. Blade steel should be something easy to sharpen (440C). great edge. The scout will be starting to learn to shapen knives and they have short attention spans.
-The second blade should be a saw or a sheepsfoot serrated blade. Remember cutting nylon rope with a PE blade, it can suck! No need for a spyder hole it will just ruin the ergonomics of the knife.
- The other side should be a combo can-opener/bottle-opener/flat-head screwdriver.
-Across from that, a awl. Big and Beefy with a chisle edge. Hopfuly you'll see the scout use this as the knifes pry bar.
-On the back of the slipjoint part of thr knife you should beable to put in a Philips head screwdriver.
-The knife should have the Scout Motto "Be Prepared!" I like Ken's "Golden, Colorado U.S.A. Earth" idea.
-And if the knife could be under $50. It would be the coolest knife at camp.

Sal, if you have one at Blade. I better get a chance to see it.

Take Care
 
Hey, the glow-in-the-dark FRN was another forumite's idea - I think they were talking about doing it for marine knives? - so no credit here :-)

One thing I've been wondering: what if you do a fixed blade with tools?

Have a full-tang fixed blade which extends out of the handle into a prying tool at the butt of the knife. Then, mount secondary tools - bottle opener, screw drivers etc - directly on to the tang, and have the plastic parts of the handle have spaces so the tools can be pulled out?

Does that make sense? You get a strong fixed blade - and your can openers and stuff.
 
I was a Scout long ago and for the past 5 years (and currently) have been an adult leader for both a Troop and Crew. I have also developed the wood tools material for the Troop and teach the materials to the Scouts, so I have a lot of interest here.

First, I would say size and safety are high priorities if you want to get approval from the BSA. It's not like what it used to be. No fixed blades are allowed on official BSA outings. To meet the needs of Scouts (urban, suburban or country), I should think that a blade of approximately 3" would meet the the legal requirements as well. You would also need a lock that was both simple and reliable. Safety is very important. No matter how much you teach, encourage, lecture, preach, and yell, they are still just boys. I have a pocket full of corners of Totin' Chips to prove it. Whatever you do, keep it simple!

Second, the multiblade Scout knives are currently being done by Victorinox and Camillus in the SAK and traditional styles. Buck also has done the Bucklite (Range model) in red FRN (my personal favorite). This one has long since disappeared and there is nothing to replace it at the moment. I would like to see Sal put his own creative style into the knife for a Spyderco Scout knife and not replicate anything that is currently being done. I think a single-bladed lockback is ideal.

Lastly, I feel that the knife should be of very good quality and materials. I believe that the boys should be taught the value of a "good" tool. All too often, I've seen a poor cutting tool do more harm than a good cutting tool.

So, given these rules, what would I like to see? I always suggest that my boys buy a knife with the following characteristics:
Price point - $35-$50 (market value)
Blade - single 3" with better grade stainless steels (AUS8, ATS-34, VG-10)
Handle - durable, washable (FRN, G10)
Lock - lockback preferred, linerlock okay
If they want a multitool, then buy a Victorinox Scout knife (it's what I use along with a Spyderco Wegner for backpacking).

Here is what I would suggest:
Scout knife - red FRN handled Delica with a flat grind in VG-10 (keep the tip a bit thicker than on the Calypso Jr.)
It would cut well, be durable and reliable and have Scout colors.

But if you really want to do it right then you need to also make a Scoutmaster's knife! ;)
Scoutmaster's knife - red G10 handled Paramilitary :D

I look forward to anything you decide to do.

Thanks for supporting Scouting!

Jeff Jenness
 
I don't use trainers in the Troop! This certainly would not be an issue in any Troop I have been acquainted with.

Besides, the red handles make them easy to find when dropped. Victorinox has red handles.

jj
 
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