Modern vs traditionnal knives

SilverFoxKnows said:
I always have a SAK or slip joint in my pocket. But it's accompanied by a modern tac folder or neck knife. One for light duty detail work and one for the tough stuff. I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.

Frank
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My sentiments exactly. A SAK and a TAC!
 
Up until recently I was a devotee of "traditional" knives eg stockman, trappers, toothpicks, bird & trout, puukos etc. I not only collected but used "traditional" knives - I have never had an accident with slipjoints and even shunned lockbacks. I even went as far as only buying carbon steel blades not be enamoured with stainless steel such as 440c etc. But, I moved with the times mainly because I was looking for better steel in my knives. My current EDC is a Spyderco Native with S30V steel and I am now a convert to "new techno" knives. The reason - as a user they provide the best in steel and ergonomics. Looking at the knife strictly as a tool then you can't go past these new types of knives. I haven't ventured as far as linerlocks but am willing to give them a go if the right knife comes along.

But as a collector I stick with "traditional" knives and still use them for specific purposes. 2 of my last knife purchases show what I mean. I now have a Spyderco Moran Featherweight with upswept blade as my utility fixed blade - this knife is a good example of new steel and ergonomics. My other purchase was for my bird and trout collection - a Kabar Lil Finn which I might take fishing with me one day but at the moment is used for peeling and cutting up the odd apple.

Maybe the middle road would be for someone to come out with a stockman in S30V with G10 scales although the ergonomics are still wanting.
 
People often ignore how much older designs were dictated by the type of materials and tooling that were available in the past. A lot of the traditional folding knife handles were made from horn since it was stronger than wood, they didn't have miracle plastics and metal liners were too expensive. The handle tapers of these designs and the blade shapes that mated to them are not highly ergonomic, they were primarily economic of materials. The evolution of the scandinavian sheath knife with its flat saber grind, stick tang, and wooden handle, likewise owe a lot to being cheap to produce. The expense of steel is one of the reasons that so many old knives were very thin, not simply performance.

Nowadays the material costs of blades and handles have modest impact on affordabity. You can buy fantasy designs with elaborate blades and handles for chump change on the Home Shopping Network. We can make any shape we want and the materials enable our freedom to choose rather than dictating what shape we must live with. In the olden days only your side arm was likely to be a premium design knife. You would find daggers and Bowie knives that were overbuilt at a premium expense that allowed going around the limitations of normal material availability. Now any old pocket knife is designed with free latitude.

There is just one catch. Today's knives are primarily designed for people who have no routine demanding application for the knives. The driving force behind designs is to appeal to people's ego and fantasies about what they want/need in a knife. While many of today's knives are made with materials and techniques that are vastly superior to what could be done a hundred years ago, they are being designed for user's who will never use a knife heavily enough to notice superior ergonomics. The users drive the manufacturers to novel shapes that don't work well, because they want that all important Conan the Barbarian or Star Wars look.

Yes, locks are a definite improvement. If you have used knives for enough hours doing a wide variety of tasks you will get cuts from slip joints closing on your index finger (usually not all that big a deal). Yes, one-hand-opening can be a big help now and then. If you skin an elk it is a big advantage to use a BG42 alloy blade that does not need to be resharpened in the middle of the process. The old-timers would have loved to have a stainless blade that would do that for them. They would learn to appreciate a Loveless designed semi-skinner for a small hunting knife. They would probably toss it and use a modern sheep skinner when they needed to skin a Buffalo. I don't think they'd complain much if it had an ergonomic molded plastic handle and an AUS-6 blade.
 
I look at it that the older designs- the stockman and trapper, for example- are survivors. They were shaped by years, if not a century or two, or evolution. They became supremely adapted, by trial and error, to do one task spectacularly well. Want to see the most evolved knife? Look at a skinner. Those haven't changed for a millenium or two. Roman skinners look much like the Western I use in the yard.

The new stuff, Spyders, BMs and the like, hasn't had a chance to evolve that far yet. The Harpy, for example, is an evolution of a linoleum or pruner's knife, while the lot of BMs are basically newer clasp hunters. Give it time, and the new will catch the old. As for now, the old works best for me. I use a Queen 11 at work, an OT8 in the woods, and a Case 54 for working in the garage. Until a new design can outcut mine, I'll own 'em, but they won't see NEAR the use.
 
Modern materials are an improvement, I already agreed.

(How many of you do own a Loveless ?)

I'm sorry but in my humble opinion, the possibilities of new materials are often misused. For one great and simple SR type handle, how many Herbertz and Spydercos ? Of course, some great new shapes do appear; the opposite would be frightening, it would mean that we were more stupid than the ancients. Of course BG-42 is nice to have, provided you can sharpen it the day you need to, WHERE you need to.

If you want, take my post as a regret. I regret that with better materials, more freedom in shapes, more choice, we actually end up with customers (I do not say "makers"; they only answer to the market) choosing designs which, for ten times the price, are really not ten times better than the old ones. Many are worse. Some are better but they are desperately expensive and are eventually a small proportion of the production (even after you've thrown out all the knives which are not discussed at all in these forums)

You can overall take my post as an advice : try out an old design, be surprised by its convenience, and then you will be able to choose, if you wish, a modern design which represents progress instead of "happy ignorance" (don't take the word as an offense, it's the only one I found in my poor english to express what I would like).
 
I don't like all the traditional designs, but I like a great many of them. I also don't like all the modern designs, but I do like quite a few of them as well.

I love bowies, but I generally prefer the modern interpretation more than the knives from Jim Bowie's day. There are some definite exceptions to that, but for the most part that is the case.

I think there are many really good modern knife designs and innovations, but many of today's knives just leave me shaking my head. Many are designed to impress those with the mall ninja mentality and functionality was the furthest thing from the designers mind.

Personally, I just love well thought out knife designs. It doesn't matter to me if they are traditional or modern.
 
From my point of view:

Most of those old to ancient designs are still around for one, maybe two reasons. Reason #1, they work. They have proven themselves in the real world of the knife USER. Reason #2, ceremonial or ritual use. Some designs have held their popularity because of their use in a "dress" type uniform or use in a particular ceremony.

Most "modern" knife designs will gradually fade away. The ones that "make the cut" (pun intended) will be the ones that prove their usefulness and veratility. Many of these will be no more than slightly "updated" versions of much older designs.

YMMV...........

Paul
 
When it comes to fixed blade knives, I definitely lean toward traditional designs. They look nicer and often have better guards and are safer to handle (excepting those guardless Scandinavian knives, of course).
 
My own personal experience is that initially, I did get pulled into knives by the cool factor. I wanted the latest tactical blades with black coating and great locking mechanisms like the axis lock.

But now, maybe because I was forced into such a change due to a lack of funds, I prefer the older designs. Fixed blades, they don't offer any problems with blade play and so forth, which almost always starts to affect folding knives. The design is simpler but that doesn't mean it cannot be more beautiful.

Having recently gone to a knife show, I saw all the people milling around the tactical knife tables like I would have. But I preferred to handle the custom, more traditional knives. The ones with engraving, filework and pearl rather than black nitrate coatings and wicked spikes.

I discussed this with one of the makers. One of his knives was a huge fixed blade, made from a ball bearing casing with a special type of handle design. He said that in his own experience, the "old" stuff grows on you, and gets better as you own it for longer.
 
By old designs I do mean things like bowies and slipjoints.

I never really understood why pukkos were so popular though. They look out of proportion it seems.
 
I say screw tradition and a gimmick can burn in hell. When I look for a knife, the last thing on my mind is how old the style is. All I need is something that will get the job done. Nevermind all of those new gimmicks that will be old garbage in three years. Lord help me if I ever buy a CRKT Snap Lock! (that thing is ugly, and it feels so terrible. It's is awkward to use, and I hate it.) I have no beef with new designs if they work. I think that new materials offer potential that old knives never had a chance to know. If a stainless steel has propper heat treating and good edge geometry, it will work fine. Give me some nice solid G10 scales to hold on to. If a knife is quality made, then it will endure.

As for slipjoints: I would rather stay clear of them. Most are two small to fit well in my hands. Even those that will, I have trouble peircing things in simple, daily, knife tasks.

Question: Why buy a knife if you hate the grip (and most other parts) so much?
 
I vote for traditional knifes!
They're proven since a long time and since I won't kill somebody with my knife, a spanish navaja (originaly ment as a fighting knife) or laguiole, german Nicker or corse vendetta are great for ALL I need.
Good locks, slim blades, great handcraft.
Not realy a traditional knife, but a SAK is a great back up.
 
skinny_dan said:
I never really understood why pukkos were so popular though. They look out of proportion it seems.
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If you mean the handles look too big for the blades, then you've hit one of their advantages square on the head. The blade is made the size it "should" be, and the handle is made the size it "should" be. And the aesthetics don't matter too much. In theory, you end up with a knife that ain't pretty, but works well.

(BTW, in my experience "ain't pretty but works well" often ends up looking attractive to the person who uses it. I've never liked a Spyderco at first glance, and now they're mostly what I carry.)
 
I have a growing collection of Scandinavian fixed blades. Even the Chris Reeve Sable III that I use so much has a blade shaped very much like a puukko.

Traditional knives were shaped by utility more than economics and many of them approach similar solutions. If you put a Laguiole against a jack knife, you'll see the same basic knife in different materials. An Opinel is a good approximation of what a folding Mora would look like.

At one time, traditional knives were made by traditional methods. Now modern industrial machinery allows for mass production: the old style, with all the new cheapness and lack of fit & finish of the throw-away society.

The traditional knives that are still well-made are as good as any user knives in the world. Look at a 4" fixed blade Helle and tell me where you can find a better knife.
 
Yea, pukkos looked like the handles were too big.

But from the ones I've handled, they definately look like good knives. I could really get to like one if I owned it if it had a lot of good craftsmanship put into it.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
I have a growing collection of Scandinavian fixed blades. Even the Chris Reeve Sable III that I use so much has a blade shaped very much like a puukko.

Traditional knives were shaped by utility more than economics and many of them approach similar solutions. If you put a Laguiole against a jack knife, you'll see the same basic knife in different materials. An Opinel is a good approximation of what a folding Mora would look like.

At one time, traditional knives were made by traditional methods. Now modern industrial machinery allows for mass production: the old style, with all the new cheapness and lack of fit & finish of the throw-away society.

The traditional knives that are still well-made are as good as any user knives in the world. Look at a 4" fixed blade Helle and tell me where you can find a better knife.
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Seconded. I've gotten way more comments about my Brusletto Liten Profiglenkniv than I have about all my other knives combined (unless you count sharpness comments, which rely more on the person doing the sharpening.)

I'm contemplating on simply carrying that knife on my hip and no others, since it does everything I need from a knife. But, if only california was a little more FB friendly...
 
Traditional and modern knives are a bit like new and vintage cars.

Generally, modern knives have some bonus points that are missing in the old-world ones. But old world blades (traditional) have a certain charm that is lacking in the modern ones.

Thus, sometimes, you see a guy drives around in a vintage car and is extremely proud about his vehicle. Same with knives. Some traditional knives make up for their simplicity and elegance with their straightforward design.

Old or new, it is what your heart tells you. Sometimes it is good to have both. That is why the hobby is such great fun!
 
What about art knives where do they fit in?

Traditional styles with modern or unusual materials.

How about knives from likes of DeBraga, and Hibben.
DEBRAG~5m.JPG


picture courtesy of

Robertson Custom Cutlery
 
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