Mora knives: I've seen the light

pict said:
One photo put it all in perspective for me a years ago.

A South American Indian had some sort of arm band located between his bicep and deltoid. Stuck under the armband was a cheap $.75 paring knife. This was his "One knife" concept and I'll bet it was one of his prized possessions.

As we say in my other hobby... "It's not the gun, but the man." Mac
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Well i guess that nicely illustrate the point, if one does not KNOW HOW to survive with a cheap paring knife (or maybe even no knife at all) then a big bowie probably wont make much of a difference.

Knife only augments our skill, if we have no skill then no knife is going to be "good enough", if we have skill then a cheap paring knife is adequate, big bowie or machete, ax, etc is just bonus.
 
I absolutely agree with pict here. When the chips are down, any knife will do. Hell, I teach my students to build lean-tos with batons to break twigs, using standing dead trees broken down by hand to make the roofs, etc. They ALL can do it.

Building on that kind of skills, a humble paring knife can be a formidable tool. It will still cut better and be tougher than a stone flake anyway.

I think Moras ROCK. They're lightweight, pretty tough, and they can be sharpened beyond imagination.

Cheers,

David
 
pict said:
One photo put it all in perspective for me a years ago.

A South American Indian had some sort of arm band located between his bicep and deltoid. Stuck under the armband was a cheap $.75 paring knife. This was his "One knife" concept and I'll bet it was one of his prized possessions.

As we say in my other hobby... "It's not the gun, but the man." Mac
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Maybe so but if you gave him a machette or any other decent knife he'd throw away the paring knife ;) . He used it because its all he had! Don't mistake only choice with preference.

Mora's are decent knives no question but they are limited, while some are working overtime trying to hack down trees or limbing a tree or prying apart logs to get and the dry center I am done my shelter and thinking about other things. This is from experience with Mora sized knives competent woodsman friends carry. They saw the light very quickly in the benefit of a larger blade.

I guess some have to learn the hard way, so be it. :rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with skill of the user, it has everything to do with maximixing efficiency and minimizing caloric output and precious energy when you need it most.

Using a Mora for survival under bad conditions you'd better hope you are under ideal conditions or time is not a factor for your survival. There are many many better blades that are better multifunctional tools than the Mora.

Skam
 
"It has nothing to do with skill of the user, it has everything to do with maximixing efficiency and minimizing caloric output and precious energy when you need it most."

Ummm, since when is the skill of the user not important... :confused:
 
skammer said:
It has nothing to do with skill of the user, it has everything to do with maximixing efficiency and minimizing caloric output and precious energy when you need it most.
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That's why I use a saw or an axe or both...they're more efficient for certain types of work than a knife. By using tools more directly oriented to the tasks that are asked of them, I'm using LESS energy to accomplish the same tasks. And user skill is of immense importance even if everyone used the exact same blade. Two different people will use vastly different amounts of energy if one is skilled with a blade and one is not. That's not to mention another critical factor in an emergency: safety, which is greatly affected by user skill. It's harder to 'survive' if you stab yourself in the leg by accident.

skammer said:
Using a Mora for survival under bad conditions you'd better hope you are under ideal conditions or time is not a factor for your survival. There are many many better blades that are better multifunctional tools than the Mora
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This has been addressed in previous posts.
 
Surely, knowledge and experience IS important -- more important than things. The experienced, knowledgeable person can do more with less. Bend a sapling over, and it can be gathered with a Mora -- OR any number of Bark River's, SR Bandicoot, Fallkniven F-1, SOG Field Knife, Hackman Puukko, or most large lock-blades --- and not a "Rambo" in the lot. Indeed, as Moine said, much can be done with the tools at the ends of our shoulders.

That leaves the great mass of humanity -- the very persons most likely to unintentionally get in a "survival" situation. Experience and learning teaches that those most needing to "survive" for that golden seventy-two hours will be relatively clueless PLUS some combination of frightened, young, old, sick, injured, dehydrated, freezing, or hungry. What of them? I respectfully submit that they are the LAST people to give a great, heavy chopping tool. The best people to be so equipped safely are the same knowledgeable, experienced folk who need them least (but may use them for shear enjoyment of an excellent tool). I helped carry out at least three lads who got into a "survival" fix by chopping themselves rather than wood.

While "any knife" is likely better than none -- and a Mora is far better for outdoor work than 99% of the knives sold in the mass markets, I suggest for consideration that the inexperienced should take into the wilderness: a high-quality 3-5" fixed blade knife -- preferably harder to break than the Mora that works so well for the veteran; a light saw; and a pocket knife of some kind.

Weight allowing, they should take the Mora, or one of its Scandinavian cousins, because they will probably use it. It works great for most camping/hiking/backpacking/hunting/fishing tasks.

I just like the idea of a margin for error --- and clumsiness -- if the stuff hits the fan.
 
skammer said:
Maybe so but if you gave him a machette or any other decent knife he'd throw away the paring knife ;) . He used it because its all he had! Don't mistake only choice with preference.

Skam
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absolutely not true. Most Indigs will quickly dispose of an expensive blade and return to using a $2 Tramontina or other cheap nameless brand of knife or machete. the high $ stuff will become merely tradeable hardware for other useful items.

having a high dollar cutting tool is not a requisite for survival. if that were the case someone please inform the millions of Indians living from Mexico City to Terra del Fuego that they cant live comfortably with a cheap POS. they survive everyday with them. they sharpen that paring knife on concrete or a smooth river stone and keep right on skinning a chicken, iguana or monkey for dinner.

and the skill of the user is most important aspect of using the tools at hand.
 
skammer said:
It has nothing to do with skill of the user, it has everything to do with maximixing efficiency and minimizing caloric output and precious energy when you need it most.

Skam
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I see what you mean, I think. You're saying that for a task that requires a big chopper, the Mora user will expend more energy getting it done because they have a smaller knife. I can't argue with that, that's pretty plain logic. But how much logging are you going to do in a survival situation? I think you could survive in most situations without clear cutting large areas of forest or building a series of log cabins next to each other until you bump into civilization. :)

Unless you mean that having the "real survival knife" absolves the owner of having any skill. If that's the case, then there's really not much else to say. Even the authorities on survival that advocate the kind of knife you're talking about will tell you that skills are what saves your bacon in the wilderness.
 
Skammer,

I agree with your assessment of blade choice. I carry a machete and a small fixed blade because that’s what I prefer to use in the bush. In that small blade role my Mora SWAK does a great job.

I think we get too dependent on stuff. We like stuff, we buy it and we can’t imagine an outing without our latest acquisition. Any one of us could do mental summersaults to justify the purchase of any sharp object. (or is it just me?) That reasoning doesn’t always carry over into the bush.

That Indian was so well skilled and habituated to his surroundings that he probably didn’t even need his paring knife. It was gravy. Steel knives, machetes, axes, fish hooks are all sought after items in the jungle. They do speed up the process of getting on with life and increase your standard of living. We carry these items in our survival gear because we know we are going into an alien environment. The native peoples in those environments live very unencumbered lives as far as material possessions goes.

In the contacts I have had with indigenous people and many who live extremely simple rural lives they use common and inexpensive knives to great effect. Yes they are limited by their purchasing power and rudimentary distribution systems, but the blades they have on hand never even seem to slow them down.

I don’t agree that the guy would ditch the paring knife. I have given such people machetes before and they universally share them with whoever needs them and would give anything extra to someone who had less. If you gave them a wonderblade, like a Ka-bar, they would either sharpen it on a rock or sell it. A $300 knife to them would be a great leap forward towards the purchase of an outboard motor. Mac
 
Hillbillenigma, you're wellcome. :)
I also searched many forums before I decided to try the Moras.
I especially enjoyed the posts of the late James Mattis, Jimbo (from OldJimbo.com) and Hoodoo.
(I miss Hoodoo here.)

One of the treads I liked was the one from the end of last year, where pict (Mac) asked the opinion of the forumites about the Moras, and ended up with ordering a #1 and three SWAKs.

Meanwhile I've got a Frosts SWAK too, but I still like the slightly smaller plastic handled Erikssons better.
 
As a 17 year old my Grandpa left Norway in 1905 and came to North America . He could make pretty much anything he wanted to out of wood ...had to out of necessity. He ice-fished commercially , trapped , hunted, tanned animal skins into clothing , homesteaded, logged , the whole shebang. How is that for survival ? The knives he used were typical Scandinavian guardless knife with a 3-4" blade.

He also made knives from files , Scandinavian style of course. They never had a guard he told me it got in the way.
 
pict said:
I don’t agree that the guy would ditch the paring knife. I have given such people machetes before and they universally share them with whoever needs them and would give anything extra to someone who had less. If you gave them a wonderblade, like a Ka-bar, they would either sharpen it on a rock or sell it. A $300 knife to them would be a great leap forward towards the purchase of an outboard motor. Mac
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Unfortunately history does not agree with you. Whether it be plains Indians using steel instead of stone for the first time or the Eskimo trading in his harpoon for a rifle seal hunting. Native peoples have always traded up to better quality products when given the chance.

Aboriginal peoples of all types appreciate new and better tools and accept there use readily. From the Amazon to the arctic this is true.

This is not arguable it is historical fact. If not we would still be in the stone age.

Skam
 
UnixDork said:
I see what you mean, I think. You're saying that for a task that requires a big chopper, the Mora user will expend more energy getting it done because they have a smaller knife. I can't argue with that, that's pretty plain logic. But how much logging are you going to do in a survival situation? I think you could survive in most situations without clear cutting large areas of forest or building a series of log cabins next to each other until you bump into civilization. :)

Unless you mean that having the "real survival knife" absolves the owner of having any skill. If that's the case, then there's really not much else to say. Even the authorities on survival that advocate the kind of knife you're talking about will tell you that skills are what saves your bacon in the wilderness.
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I think being able to build a hot fire quickly by splitting, prying drenched wood to get at the dry center is an important skill NOT solved by a saw. Making quick work of smaller trees by chopping is an important need for many reasons.
A Mora will be VERY limited in all these roles.

Nowhere did I say a log cabin would be built but energy is trying to be saved and maximum benefit had with minimal effort and weight/bulk a larger chopper is the all round SINGLE tool of choice.

As for skill its not rocket science chopping a small tree so its a non issue. Skill guarantees nothing and to believe so is foolish.

Never have I ever heard in teaching survival "my blade is too large", but I hear all too often heard "my blade is too small".

Any blade is better than non no question but if you have a choice beforehand a larger blade should be your choice if choosing only one edged tool.

Live and learn I spose.

Skam
 
skammer said:
I think being able to build a hot fire quickly by splitting, prying drenched wood to get at the dry center is an important skill NOT solved by a saw.
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Saw hafway through the thickness of a length of wood at its midpoint. Strike one end of the length of wood against a rock with the cut DOWN. The piece of wood will usually split lengthways becasue the saw cut is a stress-riser.

Knowledge and experience.

(Remember, I advocate something stouter than a Mora, but fair is fair.)

skammer said:
As for skill its not rocket science chopping a small tree so its a non issue. Skill guarantees nothing and to believe so is foolish.
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The are no guarantees in life, but Darwin favors the prepared. To regard tools as the only preparation could lead one to die. Not a single recognized survival expert says otherwise.

Example: How does one safely strike a standing small tree with a chopping tool?

skammer said:
Any blade is better than non no question but if you have a choice beforehand a larger blade should be your choice if choosing only one edged tool.
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A false dicotomy: small or none/large or none. There is no such forced choice in the real world.

Of course, debating what that one knife would be is good fun. :)

Fun, that is, if one remains respectful.
 
"Unfortunately history does not agree with you. Whether it be plains Indians using steel instead of stone for the first time or the Eskimo trading in his harpoon for a rifle seal hunting. Native peoples have always traded up to better quality products when given the chance.

Aboriginal peoples of all types appreciate new and better tools and accept there use readily. From the Amazon to the arctic this is true."

That native peoples trade up to better gear is an undisputed fact. I didn't dispute it. I have lived and worked with these people, they are the most pragmatic people you will ever meet. If you ask them to light a friction fire they'll say "Why, we have some matches?" You can't hardly get them to show you the old ways because the new stuff has already arrived. The have .22's and shotguns and only hunt with bows and blowguns when the money for ammo runs out. Their money runs out alot.

They often know the value of things far better than we do. A sugar cane cutter in Maranhão makes about R$5 per day (USD $1.90) cutting cane with a $2.50 machete. If you give him a $300 wonder machete he will instantly recognize that it cuts great. He will also sell it as soon as you leave because to him it represents about half a years wages.

If someone handed me a $6000 laptop I'd thank him, sell it and buy car for my wife. Was it better than my current laptop? Without a doubt but it represents a source of value I could better put to another use.

My only point was that the paring knife wouldn't be discarded it would be given to someone else if the guy had something better. That paring knife is high tech. They don't waste anything they can't readily replace. I give away my beat up machete's all the time because the machetes they use are a shadow of their former selves. Mac
 
Kamo said:
Most Indigs will quickly dispose of an expensive blade and return to using a $2 Tramontina or other cheap nameless brand of knife or machete.
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I know local makers and this is exactly what will happen, and you should do the same thing if you also have a family to support and the expensive blade can be months or years of income.

The makers I know also craft knives out of mild steel, Al alloys and other blade materials, it isn't because these are the best choices, just that they are cheap and available.

Is this really an arguement to move away from high quality tool steels and go back to using mild steels and other scraps to make knives out of.

Pukkos come off very well indeed for light cutting when compared to a "rambo knife" and most modern tacticals, however it (puukko style) is the most inefficient way to make a knife, which is why they are so cheap.

Compare a Mora to a decently high flat ground blade with an efficient edge profile. It will not only be outcut, but has a more durable edge which is much faster to sharpen.

Great knives when you get them cheap for light utility and general cutting, if you like them, want to be traditional, can't afford a decent flat grind, etc., by all means.

-Cliff
 
Well should be so cheap anyway, I have seen customs which are expensive, but that is just silly. A Mora 2000 is a great knife in its price range, but I'd never get a custom made like that.

I have a nice little puukko which makes a solid paring knife, however it can't compare to the custom that Alvin made, full hard 1095, full hollow grind, distal taper.

-Cliff
 
Good thread, it's starting to get interesting. I have Erikson (sp?) Moras, number 1 and 22. They are good knives for the money, which is to say they are cheap knives, but still pretty good. They would not hold a candle to some of my other more expensive knives if they were in the same price range.

For example, I have some good quality high carbon fixed blades that I **greatly** thinned the edges out on. They both outcut and their edges outlast my Moras probably at least 4 to 1, maybe more. That in itself doesn't make the Moras bad, just shows the differences in steel and heat treat.

Since I don't have to sell one for a year's salary, I have the luxury of comparing them relatively objectively. I still like the Mora's for their value and ease of re-sharpening, but I have to say that I am mystified when people think they are the be-all end-all.

The "old timers" back in the early to late 1800's of the North American continent were extremely pragmatic also, with surviving foremost in their minds. I firmly believe, if given the choice, they would choose a better knife also. Of course, they might sell it for money also, but that's for a different reason.
 
With using any group as a reference you need to note not such what they used but what else was available, and what was actually important to them. Where I live is a heavy fishing community, with all the fishermen I grew up with, none of them used fillet knives to fillet fish, they all used used chef's knives because they were free.

After 20 years in the kitchen the chef's knife was ground down to a very slender blade. I gave the guys a fillet knife from Phil Wilson, they all preferred it to their knives many times over. Better grip, better cutting ability, *MUCH* better edge retention - all of them would have sold it in a heart beat and went back to the chef's knife.

-Cliff
 
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