Moras an Opinel - first impressions

[DaQo'tah Forge]

thombrogan

I have a question for you.
You are in the woods, its a bit cold, and the 4 pre-teenagers with you are all pumped up on candy bars and cola that you cant be watching them all the time.

Each has an Opinel that you just gave them in the car before you all got out to hike and set up a camp to cook your beans and hotdogs.

QUESTION:
How easly will such a troop be able to understand the workings of the Opinel , (each young man on their own), given the gunky-bean wet fingers of an 11 years old, is there any real trick to them understanding the safe way to open and close the blade??

 

[knifetester]

I am not Thom but I think the Opinel lock is very simple, secure (not prone to accidental closing like liner locks) and intuitive to operate. It does not have great lock strength, compared to an Axis lock for example, but it is adequate for the tasks you would typically use a thin bladed knife like that for.

Note the Opinel (newer models) lock shut as well as open, so it can be carried more securely in the pocket.

There are lots of times when I am using my Opinels for very light tasks, i.e. cutting a thread and the like, where I do not engage the lock at all, just the friction from the handle is enough.

The only drawback you might have with your situation is that the handles swell when wet, and if this is the case the blade can be stuck and you need pliers to open the knife until it dries.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I could not care less what a knife looks like cosmetically...

If you are using them it always seemed off to me, they look pretty knarly if you seriously cut stuff with them anyway.

But as a knifemaker trying to cut ground, this isn't the perspective I think would be most sensible.

You will even find people complaining about the finish on a Busse knife for example, a scratch on the handle or blade.

It is hard to get some makers to make solid statements about the performance that can be expected of their knives.

Many simply don't know, or know and don't want you to know for obvious reasons, the performance isn't anything to get excited about. Yeah my knives are the same as factory bucks - probably not going to generate a horde of rushing customers.

It is easier just to say "My knives are used by high speed operators" or similar, that impresses the mall ninjas and can't be debated or compared to other knives which would be possible if actual performance specifications were listed.

[Carpal tunnel]

Working with brush knives and machetes really aggrevates it

When mine was active I didn't do much heavy work either. I screwed my wrist and hand at one time so badly I could not even lift a cup of tea. Long hours playing rpg's didn't help either.

I actually don't like Khukuris very much

My brother doesn't either, there is a lot to personal style. A lot of blades also take a while to get used to, I didn't like the Dozer Agent at all when I first got it, it just seemed like such an odd design

However after reworking the edge, reshaping the point and using it extensively for months it has grown on me, especially the handle. I still would prefer a not so slick finish, but the shape has its advantages.

I would prefer a wood handle, stabalized and secured with a high strength epoxy and perhaps pins, no finger grooves. I did really like swell on the end though.

Yeah, same here. I had heard that they leave the handles that way as it gives them the chance for additional work as users bring them back.

I mentioned this to a traditional malaysian maker, he said if he tried it, his customers would likely chuck the blade at him when they returned it. Working people with need for serious tools would not tolerate it. More of a myth than reality, for there anyway.

Blackjack has a similar blade shape out now, I could not get any serious details on geometry or performance when I asked, no surprise there, but the basic shape seems close enough.

It does not have great lock strength, compared to an Axis lock for example, but it is adequate for the tasks you would typically use a thin bladed knife like that for.

Yeah, stick a 3/16" blade in the knife and it would be an odd design, but loads which are likely to break the lock would put the blade in danger of gross damage. The lock well matches the blade.

How easly will such a troop be able to understand the workings of the Opinel...

Twist the ring, it isn't hard, simpler than most locks. I don't recall having to show anyone how to unlock it actually, it is more intuitive than most of the newer locks.


Of course if you do give younger kids knives you don't do it right at the time they use them, after you have them pumped up in a new situation on sugar and caffeine.

You give them the knives before hand, and only after they have shown the sense and respect needed for working with edged tools.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

QUESTION:
How easly will such a troop be able to understand the workings of the Opinel , (each young man on their own), given the gunky-bean wet fingers of an 11 years old, is there any real trick to them understanding the safe way to open and close the blade??

It's even more ostensible than a lockback or axis lock if you have anyone open a locked-closed knife. The Opinel would make a great first folder to any child who shows a lick of responsibility. Easy to use. It actually cuts. Easy to maintain, too.

That said, I wouldn't stock up on Opinels or any other knife to hand out to other peoples' children for excursion use. First off, my daughter is only 13 months old and second, she already has a small collection of Spydercos and access to all of my other knives. Then there's that whole liability issue. I wouldn't trust anyone or their parents not to sue me if a glitch occurred and a child got hurt because I lent him or her a knife or other handtool.

 

[senoBDEC]

I'm going to have to get an opinel and a mora now.. the issue is which to choose . The Mora 2K seems good as a backup to larger camping tools.

Hm.

 

[thombrogan]

The Mora 2000 would make an excellent companion peice to your S7 RD9. The big RD for chopping, splitting, limbing and over all tearing stuff up, and the Mora 2K for fine work, wood carving, utility and food prep.

It is very light weight, inexpensive, easy to sharpen, really just an excellent knife. If you want to "try B4 you buy" shoot me an email and I can send you one out.
Also the Tri-flex and Clipper models are good. I prefer the handles (more secure and ergonomic) over the standard wood round handles. They indix *much* better, and with the small integral guard are much more secure. As well, the rubber and plastic of the M2K and Clipper provide a much better grip with wet and slimy hands than the wood or smooth plastic ones.

Thank you for your very nice offer, Mr. Knifetester. I'm figuring that my current Frosts mora (same swidgy handle) will do just as well.

I'm going to have to get an opinel and a mora now..

They're both sleeper bargains in affordable cutlery (though you can also get a custom mora for as much as you're able to spend or have someone make you a custom version of the Opinel). For most impressive out of box, get a mora.

 

[bogduck]

Just what does this company Ragweed Forge have against Canadians?
Thoes are grat knives and a great wife.
Pat

 

[thombrogan]

Thanks, Bog Duck.

I know that whenever I ship a knife to Canada, I'm terrified that customs will like it too much. Maybe you could contact Ragnar directly to see if he could make an exception and sell you his low-priced/high-quality wares.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I live in the great Canadian north and have ordered from them with no problems before.

-Cliff

 

[GarageBoy]

Get them both. 20$ for a pair of very nice knives

 

[Ivan Campos]

Just ocme across two Opinels for a good price (heck, they are cheap even when priced high it seems!) and took them to give it a try.
One is a standard #8 and the other avery slim model called Effilé, that has a thin blade and a much beter overall finish and a nice envelope type box.
The Effilé is very sharp out of the box while the #8 was sharp, but not much. I have sharpened it - very effortlessly - and it is much better now. I have put it on my pocket and will use it for a while just to see how it goes. First two impressions are: it´s so light you can´t remember it´s there and it´s hard to get used to it after a lifetime of one-hand openers.
Here is a scan of them along with a little Scandinavian inspired knife I made in the last days.

 

[thombrogan]

Ivan,

Your Scandinavian-inspired knife looks beautiful. How does it cut compared to your other knives? What led you to make such a knife?

 

[Ivan Campos]

First, an update on the Opinel #8. After having it razor sharp and cutting some cardboard - I needed to make a small box from a big one - it was taken away from me by my uncle - how could I say no? Well, it was a very successfull 30 menut test...
I am not sure if I should use the Effilé as the thin blade may be too fragile for my uses.
Thombrogan I have been considering the idea of a super spartan, super high performance, affordable Scandinavian inspired line of knives made with CPM S30V, 3V and 10V steels for some time now.
I have made three prototypes so far using 5160 blades and one piece wood handles - just to see if I could get used to working with wood handles as I have made only wrapped handles so far - and am very satusfied with the shape of the last one, the one shown here, but just can´t see any advantage given by the double grind over a single sided chisel grind (and here I have to add that 99% of the complaints I heard so far about chisel ground knives relate strictily to aesthetics). An improvement over my earlier chisel ground knives would be to increase a little bit the grind angle and put a small secondary bevel on it, instead of my usual zero grind.
The idea would be a very simple, affordable knife made of premium materials and meant to be used, used, and then used some more.

 

[Scott Free]

Ivan-- the knife in the lower right of the picture doesn't look like a standard #8 to me. On any standard Opinel that I've seen, the back end of the handle is flared. The one on yours is tapered. (Anyone else notice this?) I'm wondering if Opinel has changed their design. I wouldn't think so as they seem like a very traditional/conservative company. I hope this is not the case as I like to customize the handles on my Opinels, and you need some material to work with. Anyone have thoughts?

Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...super high performance, affordable Scandinavian inspired line of knives made with CPM S30V, 3V and 10V

Those steels would not be high performance in that geometry, they would be an exercise in frustration as they all have low machinability.

...99% of the complaints I heard so far about chisel ground knives relate strictily to aesthetics

They skew in cuts making it difficult to cut straight, the edges are also more fragile as they load unevenly.

-Cliff

 

[Ivan Campos]

Hello, Cliff

Are you refering to the chisel or to the Scandinavian style geometry?
Anyway, I have not had trouble working with S30V chisel ground blades (around 1/8" thick, 35-40 degrees, zero ground,like the one in the scan bellow). I have used these a lot, including to cut cardboard and while they tend to move sideways while cutting, this is easily controlled, so much that I never got concerned.
I have been making and using chisel ground knives out of S30V since 2002.
With thicker blades and this same geometry, the blades obvioulsly tended to get snagged (is this the correct term?) while cutting cardboard and also to force their way twisting the cardboard, but with the thinner 1/8" blades that was not a problem, and I believe it may get better using a higher grind and a very small secondary bevel.
In your opinion would a double ground Scandinavian style blade perform better? Or would you suggest another geometry? I have not made an S30V blade double ground so far so I would like to hear what you think.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Are you refering to the chisel or to the Scandinavian style geometry?

Chisel in terms of skewing and puukko style in terms of those steels.

I have used these a lot, including to cut cardboard and while they tend to move sideways while cutting, this is easily controlled, so much that I never got concerned.

Yes, you just alter your method, you can slightly angle your hand to compensate for it directly, but why do this, you would want to have some advantage for it in other areas.

You tend to find the harshest complaints about chisel grinds in knives that don't cut well and thus the user applies really heavy force and this magnifies the skewing. Different materials produce different levels of effect as well.

There is little skew when slicing a steak, but significant when slicing a turnip.

Or would you suggest another geometry?

With that class of steels, 10V etc. you need an edge bevel which is minimal in width so that there is little material to be removed when honing.

They work best on knives meant for light cutting which have either high flat or hollow grinds and very thin edges with almost barely visible secondary edges.

This way when you go to sharpen you are honing a very small strip of metal which responds very fast in spite of the low machinability of the steel.

This is one of the reasons why S90V got a horrible rep for sharpening because people were leaving edges way too thick and thus they took forever to resharpen.

The true puukko geometry, low primary grinds with no secondary edge bevel tend to work best on steels which are easy to machine and thus even the wide bevel responds well to honing.

-Cliff

 

[Ivan Campos]

Hello, Cliff

I dont think sharpening is a real issue. When one gets a given knife, he knows what to expect. Many times I heard critics and comments from people who used my knives - and they helped me improve my work substantially - and this was not among them. And K-100 steel is not particularly soft, neither is S30V. If you want a blade that stays sharp longer, better be ready when you need to sharpen it.
Anyway, that´s why I decided to give a try at a slight secondary edge, especially for the small knives in 10V I was planning to make.
I always liked chisel ground knives. To me the fact that they are asymewtrical never meant any problem. And I can use them well no matter wich side is ground just like many of my customers do. They are half as easy to sharpen as any double ground knife with the same type of grind.
I never used one so dull in the circunstances you mentioned in your example but I believe you are right, better not use dull chisel ground knives for that, but then, better not use ANY dull knife for ANYTHING - it is not only unsafe, it is pretty stupid.
And once again I state that most of the complaints about chisel ground knives have more to see with aesthetics - and many of these come from people who have never used a chisel ground knife.
And please xcuse us, Thombrogan, for hijacking your thread.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If you want a blade that stays sharp longer, better be ready when you need to sharpen it.

This isn't necessary, I have many knives made out of very difficult to machine steels, they all sharpen very trivially as they are ground so as to minimize the edge profile. In general you would do this for that reason on any knife, plus others such as durability and cutting ability.

For example a puukko styled edge at ~10 degrees is obviously a lot more prone to rolling or ripple than one at 15 degrees. Now if you just puukked at 15 degrees the cutting ability would be too low. However if you full flat at ~5 and then secondary at 15, then you get a knife which cuts better, is more durable and sharpens much faster.

They are half as easy to sharpen as any double ground knife with the same type of grind.

You can sharpen a v-ground edge in the exact same time in the exact same manner, do all the work on one side and then just finish the other. If you switch sides with each sharpening session then you will maintain the v-ground geometry.

....better not use ANY dull knife for ANYTHING

I would not argue that, but knives can get pretty dull in use. Take even the best knife and cut some really dirty materials with it, it can get really dull. I for example get a lot of garden fresh vegetables and thus peeling them can contact a lot of dirt which will dull a blade fast. I am certainly not going to scrub all of them as it would take much more time than resharpening the blades as necessary because the knives I use have minimal edges, it takes me less than ten seconds to restore them.

-Cliff

 

[Ivan Campos]

Hello, Cliff

Using a small secondary bevel and a higher gind is just what I said I am considering doing - that pretty much solves the problem, doesn´t it?
If you sharpen a V ground blade like you said too often on the same side, it evenmtually will end up like the edge on an Emerson comander, or like the edge on one of my FFC ground knives, unless you take the time to remember doing it on one side and then the other on the next sharpening session.
And regarding knives getting dull during a job, I still don´t see it as a problem. First, the steels mentioned will remain sharp longer, minimizing the problem as much as possible. Second, sharpening a knife in the middle of a job is annoying but nothing uncommon.