More thoughts on cutting comps...

J

joeshredd

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May 8, 2002
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Okay, we've seen a few threads concerning, specifically, the ABS cutting competitions. Both Terry Primos and Jerry Fisk presented a very real picture of what is going on behind the scenes regarding getting these competitions up and running, and some of the problems involved.

We've also seen a lot of interest in seeing more competitions across the country, and not just at ABS events. There has also been a lot of interest expressed by non-ABS affiliated makers of both the forged and stock-removal schools...

A general proposition:

What if we, the knife community, established a basic set of acceptable parameters of knives and created a set of basic cutting tasks that could be easily duplicated anywhere. Using this framework as a basis, any "cutting competion" would follow these basic parameters, and would be allowed to add a pre-specified number of "mystery" events... the end result possibly being that this could all lead to a World Series of Cutting competition at some large pre-chosen show...

For instance, if we establish that a maximum blade length of 'x' inches is acceptable, the blade is made (by hand) by the individual entering and that it has whatever safety characteristics as deemed appropriate... And then we say that the minimum acceptable events are rope cutting, 2"x4" cutting, etc...

Would something of that nature answer the variety of issues that seemed to be brought up in the other cutting threads?

Or do I just have time on my hands with nothing better to do than daydream... on the 'net?
 
Originally posted by joeshredd
Would something of that nature answer the variety of issues that seemed to be brought up in the other cutting threads?

Or do I just have time on my hands with nothing better to do than daydream... on the 'net?
Click to expand...

Maybe a little from column A and a little from column B?

Sounds like it would be a cool idea. Now you just need to form an association to organize, regulate and oversee the event. If you have enough custom knifemakers intersted you could set up an International custom knifemakers guild. Definitely doable.
 
Joe,

I agree that what you have laid out seems desirable. I actually had a similar idea and even started dreaming up some general sets of events.

The problem that I had explained to me is that these competitions can quickly become time and money intensive to organize.

In addition to selecting the events (we could quickly define close to 100 events to choose from in three or four basic categories) you have to arrange for Judges that will be accepted as unbiased, deal with liability and safety issues, and purchase the materials for cutting (easily thousands of dollars for a large event).

The next question is the venue. Do you hold this competition in conjunction with a major show? Which one(s)? Do you try to schedule a standalone event that does not conflict with a major show?

My personal dream would be to schedule a weekend competition and show at least a full year in advance. The competition would be open to any knife owned by the competitor that meets the following criteria:
Blade Length guard to tip <= 9.5"
Blade Depth Edge to Spine <= 2"
Overall Length <= 15"
Wrist Thong secured to Blade Tang
At least a single Finger Guard

Prior to the competition each knife would be examined by the judges for meeting the criteria, Fit and Finish.
(I would actually have the judges record a Fit and Finish score that would not be used in the competition except in the event of a tie. The score would be shared with the maker after the competition for education purposes.)

After this judging the competitions would be structured to test the following categories:
Cutting ability (Rope cut, Cigarette Paper Cut, Business Card Filet, Can Cuttings, etc)
Edge Durability (2x4 chop, Hardwood (Baseball bat?)chop, etc)
Point sharpness (Styrofoam Ball Stab, floating apple stab, etc)
Point Durability (Hardwood Stab, Steel Drum Stab, etc.)

The events would be mixed so that Cutting ability and Point Sharpness tests would preceed and follow Durability tests.

Judges would examine each competitors knife after each test for damage that would disqualify the competitor from remaining events.

The winner would be determined similar to the Lumberjack competitions with each event having a point value toward the overall score.

Maybe someday I will win the Lottery and have the funds to schedule something like this. I suspect that I would lose several thousand dollars on the investment but it would be fun.
 
Now somebody is getting the idea... SDouglas is heading in the right direction... even while bringing up real issues... like cost, venues, etc... But, I still think some sort of basic guidelines for the competion could be established, and then let each show, hammer-in or event elect to put it on, within the established guidelines, and pay for it with the local market. Or not...
I know, with out an independent rich bank account... I'm probably still dreamin'...
 
I do envision a large scale cutting competition to be beneficial to the industry over all.

Look at how many people watch LunberJack competitions on ESPN. The excitement of the competition provides an opportunity to show the public at large the level of performance available and provides an opportunity to educate them on why that performance is valuable.
 
As far as the ABS cutting competitions go, lots of people have lost sight of its orginial purpose. Which is sad. The thought was to get makers to test their knives as much as possible before sending them to the customers. The competitions encouraged them to do this. The tests where fun to do. It is getting to where it is not fun. We had these at the hammer-ins to encourage people to attend so they could learn more of how to make a better knife and to bring their knife and test it. Now we have people flying in just to cut. They do not want to participate in the hammer-in for learning sake, just to be seen and maybe make it to Atlanta for the finals and be seen there as the best. That was not what this was about.
Now if someone wants to take this out there open to everyone, have at it. At this point unless you are knee deep in it already you have no ideal of how much work this can be. For my own personal thoughts I think it is getting to be where it is the tail wagging the dog as far as the ABS is concerned. The ABS is more than cutting. Its main function is the preservation of the forged blade.

We have guys hollering in different parts of the country, and whinning they want to cut. Heck why cant they go back behind their own shops, practice and cut and use that to make a better knife? That is not what they want though. They want to be seen and the recognition. The client just wants his knife to work well. You can do that just as well behind your own shop. I have been seeing straight competition knives. They are fixed up, shaped up and handled up nothing like you would send to a client. Why would you want to enter anything on the knife you cannot deliver to a client? If you are cutting with something that you would not deliver just as is, why are you doing it that way in the first place? Would a client want tape on the handle? Why not work on the design till you get it tweaked to work right? My thoughts is some makers need to look at what and why they are doing some of this.
These are my personal thoughts and does not reflect opinions and thoughts of the ABS board.
 
Having just spent 3 days at a Hammerin at Ed Schempp's place, I can tell you that there is a great deal of desire to learn more and better everyone's knives. Ed Schempp has really been working specifically on rope cutting - his knives are AWESOME and his technique un-matched. He recently did 11 1" manilla ropes at a local show! How does one get invited to the ABS Finals in Atlanta?

~Mitch
 
Jerry,

I appreciate and respect that the main purpose of the cutting competition in the ABS is to educate the maker.

I am interested in seeing the competitions expand in order to capitalize on another education aspect, The Knife Buyer or Potential Knife Buyer.

If the main function [of the ABS]is the preservation of the forged blade, I submit that you need to educate at least the Knife Buying Public as well as the Makers.

I submit that the excitement of the cutting competition is far more effective at educating the knife buying public than the makers. IMHO the maker's education occurs at the shop building and testing a knife that has the performance necessary to compete successfully.

I also agree that no maker should compete with a knife that is not of a quality that could be delivered to a customer. I would propose that one way to discourage this behavior would be to have Fit and Finish included in the scoring. This might also encourage makers work on the user interface (handle ergonomics) of their knives. If the handle is slippery during competition it will be slippery in the field. If it rubs blisters during the 2x4 chop it will rub blisters making an improvised shelter in a survival situation.

I realize that in trying to push the competitions as a Public Education tool instead of a Maker Education tool that I am introducing another level of complexity to what is already a difficult job. The only defense that I can offer for this is that it sounds like the complexity is already developing without capitalizing on the public education benefit.
 
Sorry I haven't jumped in anymore than to start this... it's that kind of a week...

Jerry, thanks for adding; it was basically yours and Terry Primos's input that clarified a lot of what has gone on, why and what's goin' on now... And it does sound like any attempt at putting on a cutting event would be complex, at worst.

However, I definitely want to thank SDouglas, as he's putting forth a much better thought out viewpoint than I've had time or ability...

I think that the work the ABS has done to further the knowledge of bladesmithing, both within it's ranks and for the customers, has proved, at least within my collection, that everybody wants to know more and see more. And since the ABS aims at a particular aspect of the knife world, I just have felt that the same basic reasons for the ABS cutting events would apply to all other knives, makers and buyers.

Hence, a desire to see some sort of framework applied to "Cutting Contests" so that any event that so chose could hold one and everybody in it would know that there was some level of ability, quality, etc that had to be met so that those not in attendance would have a benchmark to understand the results.

I mostly collect forged blades, but I do have some stock removal and some manufactured knives. What I would like to see is a situation in which forged, stock removal or machine made knives (I don't mean to open a different can'o'worms with this, please! :D ) could compete side by side in the same events, thus giving both the 'contestants' and the potential buying public some idea of the strengths and weaknesses of each type of manufacturing process.

And from what I've read recently and keep hearing... this sort of idea may be a little too big or premature to handle. As I haven't tried to or been involved in putting on these events, I will let this issue rest for the time being... although, if there turns out to be enough interest... maybe it's time I gave more than I've taken... Maybe we in the Northwest could spear-head this thing?

Cheers guys!
 
If the idea of having a open to all types of knives competition ever comes into being, some organization with an international reputation for honesty and a good banker will have to put it on. As of today, no such organization exists. There are some Guilds that, if they would combine their resources, could field what is necessary to make it fly. That would take cooperation between guilds that most of them do not even have within their own guild.

The one organization that is completely out of the picture, and you can expect them to stay out of the picture, is the ABS.
The ABS owes it's present sucess to strict adherance to their primary stated objective, preservation of the art of the forged blade. To expect the ABS board to step off that path, after 26 years of continued growth, is unrealistic.
They may have the organizational capability to pull it off, but the chances of them doing anything outside the forged blade arena is zero.

I wish who ever takes this up, all the luck in the world, They are going to need it:)
 
I would say that the most logical person or persons to put on a large scale cutting competition open to knives of any manufacture method would either be an established show promoter or a knifeknut who wins a very large lottery (my personal fantasy).

Hopefully the event could be structured in such a way as to be endorsed by the ABS, Knifemnakers Guild, AKTI, etc. But I don't Believe that it would be reasonable for any of these organization to try to put on the type of event that I have suggested.

I am just speculating at this point but I would guess that organizing the first "World Championshtip Cutting Competition and Knife Show" would require at least a year and a half of preparation and probably $500,000 to $1,000,000 of up front capital.

The first requirement would be securing a suitable venue. I would probably look for a fair ground or similar location with both indoor and outdoor space somewhere in the Mid West near a Major Airport. Leasing a facility like this will be expensive.

Then a panel of trusted judges would have to be assembled. I personally had thought of people like Les Robertson, A.G. Russell, Steve Shackleford, Bruce Voyles, etc whose names are well known within the community. There are a number of makers that I would add but I would want to give them the option of competing before asking them to judge.

Having secured a venue and lined up at least some judges it would be necessary to carefully document the rules and a list of candidate events at least one year before the Competition and advertize these widely (Blade Magazine, Knives Illustrated, Internet Forums, ABS and Knifemaker Guild mailings or newsletters, etc)

Everything up to this point would be done with no funds coming in and the majority of the funds won't come in until the actual event.

The sources for Cost Recovery would be Contestant Fees, Table Fees for the associated show, and Ticket Sales to the public. As a brand new event these probably could not be set high enough to fully recover costs so the organizer has to plan on losing money at least the first couple years.

Other costs that would have to be factored in would include:
Event Security
Liability Insurance
Medical Assistance Personnel
Advertizing
Cutting Materials for the Contest
Administrative Supportm to Process registrations, collect fees, etc
ETC

Other factors that would have to be considered in the timing of this event: It should not be scheduled too close to any of the established major shows so that makers and collectors aren't spread to thin.
The actual cutting events should be held outside so weather will have to be considered.
Television Coverage of the event may be feasible if ESPN or Outdoor Life Network are looking for material around the time they televise the Lumberjack and Strongman Competitions.

Conseidering all of this, Why would anyone want to take on such an undertaking?
1. It has the potential to improve the quality of knives throughout the industry. (This is the reason the ABS started the competitions for forged blades. Let's expand it.)

2. It has the potential to educate the public. I don't believe that this can be over stressed. There is a difference in quality and this competition would clearly demonstrate it. This would also call for a knowledgeable MC to explain the characteristics the event tests and why they are important.

3. It would be ultimately cool to be able to crown one individual with one knife as the undisputed "King or Queen of Cut" for that year.
 
Eventually, in time, there will probably be cutting contests that will be in all parts of the country. That will enable the contestants to participates to enjoy the challenge of cutting against other members of the orgainzation. For those that wish to compete in the contests that are authorized, all you need to do is join the American Bladesmith Society and forge a knife to meet the specifications of the contest. It is really all that simple. If you don't have a forge, anvil, etc., just go to a hammer in at about any of the area blacksmithing, bladesmithing, etc. IF you don't have the time to do that, then contact a member of the ABS and they would probably be glad to help you in your quest to enter an ABS cutting contest. Whether you would ever continue to produce your knives by forging or not, you would have gained the experience of forging and would have intimate knowldge of the steps involved in producing a blade to meet or exceed the requirements that the ABS has set for its members.
If you think that it costs too much money, then you probably can't afford to go to one anyway. ABS yearly dues are $60.00 a year and you don't have to be approved by a clique to join. $25.00 will buy you about 2 pounds of 52100 that is ready to forge into a "High Performance" blade and then you have some belts, files, and pins to put the handle on and thin the blade into your idea of a winner. These you should already have if you do stock removal. If you have just started making knives, you owe it to yourself to go for the information. You don't have to be an ABS member to go to the hammer in, just to enter the cutting competition.
I just got back from the Hammer in at Washington, Arkansas this week end and it was not a cheap trip. It was a very informative week end for me (which is the main reason I go) and I got lot of enjoyment visiting with other knife makers. You can figure cost of the hammer in, 500 miles, 2 nights in a motel, and food for the 2 1/2 days. If you have a buddy that enjoys the same thing, carpool and share a room.
This has been a little longer than I had intended but, if you want to play, you have to join the team. I know there aren't any cutting contests in the west but then, there will be when the acceptable criteria of the ABS is met and all the details are worked out.
This is all my own personal opinion and I wouldn't mind cutting against any one that makes knives. Specialty cutting blades do have their place and what is learned can be put to use in other areas, the all around blade should be able to do all of it.
 
Mr. Kirk,
Thanks for joining in. I've watched your stuff since I first heard of you.... which was very recently, actually... I've attached the reason why I've heard of you, and why I've followed what's been available in the publications and here on BFC.

As you are a maker of forged knives and a member of the ABS, I hear where you're coming from regarding this topic. As I've said (okay, paraphrased Terry and Jerry!), it was the efforts of you guys in developeing the concept of using a cutting competition to both aid in the learning process and in providing "Spectator Appreciation."

I think what SDouglas (hey... feel free to tell me not to put words in your mouth! LOL!!) and I are aiming at is extending the baseline work the ABS has done in order to provide a similar framework for any knife maker... After all, knives are tools meant for a purpose: and any knife built to suit that purpose should be able to "compete" against any other purpose built piece with the end goal of aiding each maker to be his/her best.... And at the same time, to provide both entertainment and education to the people that keep the makers in business - like me! :D

I'm not trying to blur the lines between specific groups, such as the ABS or the Guild, but I do think that such an over-arching framework would provide a lot for the entire knife community... Yes, expensive, complex and probably just still a pipe dream... But think of it - All you guys in tutus swinging big blades in a family setting like a big show... televised...

Okay, I'm shuddering, too...:D But, I've actually managed to show a lot of people here at work what it is I collect, and a lot of tham don't necessarily hold the same view of knives they did before they saw my collection... Now, their view of me may have changed... LOL!!!
 

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Joeshredd,
What I was talking about when I alluded to joining the ABS, was that if you really wanted to cut in competition "now", then join the ABS and go where there will be a cutting competition. This week end there were 29 entrants and there were only 2 that were disqualified due to edges failing. I would dearly love to participate in a makers competition with all the rules laid out and even knowing what the cutting tests were going to be. Maybe even have 10 different items all lined up to conquer with edge judges at the half way point to check the edges. Kind of like the swashbuckler wading through the bad guys and them falling to the way side. :) That is something that I hadn't thought of before but then there are a lot of things that I haven't thought of. :)

Nice knives. :) Just my style.
 
Ok...Ok

I can see the direction SDouglas And Joeshredd are going. It is a great idea. Perhaps a group can get the necessary elements together and travel from show to show making this happen. Charge an entry fee and give a modest cash award to the winner. Run it like a tournament. I have competed in several Martial arts tournaments ( I despise them for a few reasons, but that is another story), and they are a lot of work. They can also be profitable for the promoter. They are all over the country, every weekend. This is doable, more so than most seem to think, but the format has to change from the ABS cutting competitions.

The ABS charges no entry fee, gives no cash prize to the winner and limits the competition to forged blades only. The primary pourpose is to promote the forged blade. It has had incredible sucess in doing so, and I absolutly love being involved with the ABS. I know that any of the competitors in teh ABS comp. would pit their blades against anyone's. The reason....it's about making YOUR knives better, not about beating the other makers. J. Fitch has won several, and yet he still tries new techniques to make his knives better cutting tools. So does Reggie Barker and Jim Crowell as well as.....everyone I know of that competes.

The problem I see with elevating the competitions above what the ABS is doing is this. With the competition expanded, a whole new sector of the knife industry is created. As we are seeing with the ABS comp., makers will come to shows and venuse where they are held, only to compete. Care must be taken to keep the events from conflicting with the show itself. Evidence from martial arts tournaments indicate a distinction in the crowd will evolve between people attending the show for knife buying and collecting, and the competitions. It has potential to be disasterous, or tremendously sucessfull depending on very delicate issues like this.

The only way to know is for someone to ante up and put an open cutting competition on. Give it 3-5 years to mature and look at the effects. I will say up front I would liek to see it happen. I also liek to throw down a challenge. I don't think the current stock removal blades can win against the ABS champs. Give them some time to refine what makes a knife for competitions like this and we will see. My money is on Fitch, Kirk, Crowell and Barker:cool:
 
Now you guys are talkin'! And this is why I truly enjoy this hobby of collecting!

Bailey, you are driving, I think, in the direction I see, also. However, I too, fear that the competition may eventually outweigh the original intent, which to me is to benefit the ability of the makers, not to try for monetary rewards or commercial recognition.

An interesting conundrum... to try and reach a broader market and avoid over commercialization...

Need a pitcher of beer to wrap around this one... but it's far too early in my day for that...

Cheers!
 
Bailey,

I have been struggling with the balance in my own mind. As you have indicated as the competitions grow in popularity and stature more and more people will come only for the competition. The ABS is already experiencing this today.

I am on the verge of saying OK, this is inevitable so let's shift the focus to educating the public and providing the incentive for makers to test and educate themselves at their shops. Let's face it in order to approach a competition with any level of confidence a maker will have to test the knife which is one of the goals.
 
The more I think about it, the better the idea seems to get...as long as it is done properly. The potential for it to take off and perhaps even be televised is tremendous. Think of it, your sitting up late one night, half empty bag of chips in your lap, and there it is! The World Open cutting Championship! Who would have ever thought Reggie Barker could make it to National television:eek:

Stranger things have happened. When The Discovery channel showcases Pumpkin Chunkin', and devotes an entire show to it at 8:00 pm in the evenning, I think we could make it on before midnight.

(Are you listening Jerry?)

Make a really big, goofy looking trophy that the winner...HAS...to keep for one year. Have team competitions, or a cut relay. If it has to be for entertainment, it can certainly be done. To be able to see Ed Schemp cut 9 to 11 ropes on an ESPN highlight would be too cool:D
 
I'm not a member of the ABS, so nothing I say maters, as usual:

1)I think it is unrealistic to imagine the purpose of the ABS will necessarily remain unchanged forever. I can think of any number of groups, from guitar makers to woodturners, to rock climbers that have totally blown away the standards of twenty years ago. Is the forged knives, today, about to go out of style? I think it very unlikely. There are guys apparently reaching very high standards in their first year or so today, if not after a one week class. Take someone with some metal and wood background, show them a forge, and you see them at the next knife show. Just look at the kids.

2)The ropecutting thing could actually backfire on the ABS if someone Buckmasters the heck out of it, the ABS will be like a longbow shooter at the IBO Worlds, totally passed by. It's quite possible that someone will come up with a manufactured knife that is superior to what currently exists forged, I see no reason why not conceptually they have a lot more options. If there are any fine legal minds among the membership, they should be trying to do a Mickey Mouse trademark protection on this test, before a Jackie Bushmanlike (no disrespect) person discovers it and rips the carpet out from under the ABS.

3) Fisk has already pointed out that the test as a quality tool is no longer totally functional. It could be, but increasingly isn't. The idea behind the tests is that if you take your standard Bowie, and run it through these tests, you should either prove the knife is excellent, or at least learn something. However if one builds to the test, one is building-in irrelevant characteristics that may actually be bad for the development of the knife (though that implies fairly conventional thinking, I'm not sure a raceknife is actually a worse idea than a 19th century design for which not everyone has a use).

4) It could be a very valuable commercial property, or at least promotional vehicle. The public is ready after seeing the delToro scenes where he forges a knife using a lighter or something. People can't wait. Think paintball, turned out to be more valuable (not just $$) than whoever first thought of it might have imagined.


Of course most of these reasons can be flipped on the ABS, someone takes this to the Outdoor Games (if they still exist), Bassmasters, or Cabelas, and uses it to pump their message, and it's all over.
 
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