More thoughts on cutting comps...

I am not a knifemaker. Over the years I have collected both forged and stock removal knives. In the last two years I attended both the New York and the Moran ABS Hammer-ins. Anyone who is interested in knives should attend a Hammer-in if possible. You can learn about all aspects of knifemaking not just forging. If you see the work that Jerry Fisk and some of the other Smiths put into the cutting competions you would be impressed. They vary the test requirements every time so that no one style of knife can be made as a special competative cutting knife. Because of the caliber of people that I have met who are in the ABS, I joined as a collector and now collect only forged blades. I am sure that stock removal knives can be made to cut specific things, but I agree with Bailey Bradshaw that I don't think a non forged blade could compete with a forged blade. Do not fault the ABS for limiting the competion to forged blades. That is what the make and up until now no other group has been willing to do the work involved in a cutting competion. Jim Treacy
 
Thanks for the compliment to the ABS, Mr. Treacy, and welcome to the group. And it just looks easy. :) :) :)
 
I won't argue which blade is "better", but one has to factor in years of evolution, and for that mater skewed contest conditions.

The early compound bow was a poor choice compared to longbows, noisy, unreliable, it distanced the archer from the shot, and was slower to "reload". But compunds take all the honours pretty much, in archery today. There are still things the longbow is better at, but the compound has improved greatly, and the shooting competitions reflect compound strengths, not longbow.

For istance imagine a future where the competition knives come in packs with interchangeable blades for different kinds of test, or more conventionaly we just get some super stock removal knives, and they have electro diferencial hardening like Japanese saws. Imagine further we have real athletes competing with these knives, and the best are using the best factory knives. There are many clubs that are better than Callaway golf clubs, but a number of very successful players play them, for the money.

I have no chrystal ball to predict what will happen, but if these comps ever took off, we should expect the same kind of excess as in compounds, blackpowder rifles, silouette, IPSC, race chainsaws, etc... where the sponsorship (and it doesn't take much net money) just takes over.

So what is at risk right now? That the forged blade will disappear over the next few years, because of lack of interest, or that the comps will become a tool for showing that forged knives really aren't practical, cost too much, and mostly rust. If art always won out in the marketplace, we wouldn't have in-line blackpowder rifles taking over from the Hawkens etc.. rifles of a few years ago.
 
..the forged blade will disappear in the next few years...I personally don't think it is likley; but as a forger i am biased in my opinion. Anybody can go out and buy a perfectly good factory knife, or a piece of pottery, or a wooden rocker. Very, very nice commercial work is out there.
But; and this is a big but; some people want to buy something made by the hands of a single craftsman. And; they want to get to know and relate to that craftsman.
Unique, fine craftsmanship, with a personality, is what keeps the blades of the ABS men and women in the marketplace. Some think it is hype; but go to a major show and look at all the knives on display. Talk to experenced buyers of custom and factory knives. There is a difference.
I may become a dinosauer in the knife business, but all the clients and other bladesmiths that I know that can't seem to adapt can share our misery together. Hell; one day they might dig us all out of the same tar pit. m
 
Mike brings up a great point. Look at the Camillus collaborations with Fisk. I think they are doing one with Jim Crowell as well. The knives arepretty nice. They have all the dimensional features most hand made bowies have. Balance, profile, nice wood handle.... Then pick up a hand made bowie. No where near the same. This is what you pay for in a handmade knife. I also like the feel of a well forged blade over a stock removal blade that has not been tapered. It makes a huge difference, and is difficult and time consuming to grind a distal taper on a blade.

All this adds up to things a factory can not do, and that is primarily give each knife that individual personality that makes them unique. Cutting competitions give makers a drive and goal in making the knives perform as well as they look and feel. Don't you love it when you pick up a knife and get this overwhelming urge to go hack something:D

As far as being dug out of the same tar pit as Mike Wiliams.....He is in Oklahoma...I am a Texan....I wouldn't allow my ancestors to have to bear that thought:p (Sorry Mike...Nothing personal)
 
I personally believe that instead of trying to change the ABS the knife industry needs someone to pick up the ball and put on an expanded competition open to all knives.

The ABS has been very successful because they have remained true to their original purpose.

If collectors want to see a Cutting Competition open to Stock Removal and Factory Knives as well as Forged Knives we need to convince someone like a show promoter that we will support such a competition economically.

Remember that we are asking someone to invest a large amount of Time, Energy and Money for our enjoyment.
 
Good points all. Bailey, you're just too funny :D

While the thought of a World Champion class event might seem ideal to some folks, I myself am quite hesitant about anything changing quite so dramatically. I have only had the opportunity to witness one cutting competition (this past year in Atlanta). What really mattered to me wasn't who won the competition or even who was participating. What I found most entertaining and inspirational was the casual, good natured demeanor of the participants, the sense of camaraderie and the wonderful job Jerry Fisk did serving as MC. Yeah, I am an old softy I guess :rolleyes:

I feel in the end that commercializing such an event would bring nothing but bad things. Just look at the Super Bowl. I much prefer the memories of the games of my childhood to any of the fiascos that take place today. The emphasis used to be on the GAME, not the player's, the damned halftime show or who's showing what for commercials. It's the GAME that is the important part. As it should be with the cutting competitions. I for one enjoy seeing maker's whom I recognize competing head-to-head to test their knifemaking and cutting abilities. Knowing full well that they will learn a little from this and take it home to possibly improve the performance of their own offerings in the future. I don't want to see this become a showcase for guy's who desire to build knives only for the sole purpose of competing in these events.

While I may be a little off here, I feel that I have been directly influenced by these cutting competitions. And in a positive way. You see, I was looking for someone to build my personal vision of what I thought would be my ideal blade to use for clearing brush, limbing and cutting green saplings. The type of work typically found when clearing trails, roads and shooting lanes. I was looking for someone who knew knife design, function and that I could count on to make the blade perform at the tasks I would require it to perform. This would mean someone who knew how to make a knife that could CUT. I looked to who was doing consistently well in the ABS competitions as a starting point and decided on a maker (BTW, thanks again Ray!). It just sort of made sense to me. I am proud to say that after a much anticipated wait, the end result was everything I could have hoped for. The knife has performed flawlessly so far and I couldn't be happier with it. I would like to believe that this is at least part of the benefit the cutting competitions have had on the partcipants, to serve as a knowledge base for knife design and performance.

Keep it simple, keep it fun and keep it real. There is enough bullshit and overhyped events in the world already. This event was started by a group of honest, hardworking bladesmith's who enjoy a little friendly competition. I am all for leaving it at that.
 
Blademan,

I personally am not interested in changing the basic intent or tone of the Cutting Competitions simply expand the scope to benefit a larger segment of the knife industry.

I don't see how a Bladesmith, Factory or Stock Removal Maker could fail to improve their offerings trying to produce a competition blade.

As a result I see having a competition open to a larger segment of the industry as good for the whole industry.

My only argument is that it is not reasonable to ask the ABS to expand their competition to the whole industry because of the time, energy and expense involved in hosting a cutting competition.
 
On hand made, I have heard one troubling comment, and it is just one... A successful turner who said that he felt the demand was narrowing. I grew up with people making things like hand made candles, and leathergoods AKA hippy enterprise that emphasised the hand made and individual. This isn't the message that is animating the picture cellphone crowd, that travels in packs. Anyway most of us will peak out before that matters, but it was interesting, because the handmade has seemed to be on a return all my life, but this was a different demographic.

While I can see how an open class would benifit knifemaking in general, I don't see it benefiting the ABS. Even if someone comes along and does all the work. Unless one is confident that Cold Steel will never win it. I think if the ABS opened it up to cold steel, they would win it next year. While it's fun to have a bunch of good old boys hacking around, the level of martial arts or athletic skill that could be brought to bear would overwelm the 50 year old farmer crowd.

I am not disrespecting the farm crowd. I know right well I can make better golfclubs than Callaway, from components, for peanuts. If Tiger Woods drops by for a shootout, he will still beat me with whatever clubs I use. So the moment this thing is thrown open, the ABS dominance will disappear. The other reason ABS looses is because as everyone is pointing out, they aren't trying to win it, they are trying to learn from it. The larger players don't need the R&D they are marketing driven.
 
Protactical, It is obvious that you don't understand the purpose of a cutting competition. It is as much to do with what is the best blade as who has the most skill or strength in weilding a blade. Most knives are never used as a martial arts weapons, but they are used as tools to accomplish a variety of tasks. If you had ever experienced any combat situations you would know just about any working firearm beats about any knife. Your statement that Cold Steel knives would beat ABS knives because they sell more, is like saying that a Ford Taurus would beat a Ferrari in a car race because Ford sells more cards.
 
Protactial
Interesting thougths, as others have kicked in. If I may clear up some thoughts etc.

The ABS will not compete against anyone in competition but ABS members who forge their own blades. The mission purpose of the ABS is to promote and educate people about the forged blade. That is it. If someone wants to start one for production or others have at it.

The ABS promotes the forged blade. We begin with our own members to encourage them to learn more and to use that as a tool to educate their individual collectors and we encourage other people to learn more about the forged blade and to become members of the ABS so they can learn even more. Many times makers do not go out and stretch just what all a knife can do this is where our competitions come in. One thing we have noticed. When we first started these we have had as many as 3/4 of the contestants fail with a damaged blade. Now it is rare to have one fail in a contest. They are learning and this goes right to the customer. I have seen handle designs that came in to play because of the contest that the makers are now putting on their regular beaters.

There is talk about the Knifemakers Guild putting on a cutting contest at their show next year. This would not be affialitated with the ABS. It is a Knifemakers Guild thing. I think it is a real good thing. It encourages their members to get out there and stretch.

At this point the ABS is concerned about the future as we all should be in each business. The ABS is getting ready to start up a youth program. We are looking seriously into working with the Boy Scouts for badges, we are looking into art galleries to show the art side of knives, we are looking to expand just what we can do to get out there and promote the forged blade in a number of new and different type areas than has not been tried before. Will we succeed an grow? Yes. Some of the ventures we are planning may not work, some will. As my old dad used to say, "we will show you so many ways you will have to like some of them". We will continue to grow and show folks what we are about. These contests are just one area.
And one other truthfull thing, so you know we do not have our heads in the clouds, the best knife to carry to a knife fight is a 12 guage pump. Bar none. Now, lets all have some fun.
 
Well said Jerry!! I have not entered a cutting competition...yet. My timing is always off in getting a cutter made. I now have one ready, I just need a competition to enter. Anyway, I have learned a tremendous amount from just watching these events. As Jerry pointed out about makers implementing changes in their knives from lessons learned at cutting comp's, I have done just that. My handles, edge geometry and even overall cunstruction has evolved. I am able to make these changes due to re-enacting the cutting chores I witness. My knives are better for it, and that is ALL GOOD:cool:

Practical, no harshness in my tone here, but there are few 50 year old farmers cutting at these events. I have 15 years Martial arts experience, and many of them in Kenjutsu. I know how to cut. I am not claiming to be a world class Kejutsuka, but I have done thousands of cuts on all kinds of material. What I learned from my Sensei, I witness John Fitch and Jim Crowell discover through practical application and lots of research. Only minor differences separated their technique and mine, and the differences were no more than what separated my style of swordsmanship and several other schools of the sword. The dominating factor was the blade moving forward through the target. Jim and John figured this out, altered their knives to furthur enhance the cutting ability using this principal and have certainly been sucessful. That is what cutting competitions are supposed to do.

The guys at Cold Steel are good knife fighters, but after watching the complementary two DVD set they sent, I saw no better actual cutting technique than my own or of several other smiths who are good cutters. And just to add insult to injury, a couple of quotes from swordsman of another era...."a fast sword cuts nothing" "the sword cuts, the body gets in the way...both yours and your opponents" Athletisicm is not a part of cutting. My Ken instructor is a short little fat guy, but he is in the right place at the right time with the edge moving in the right direction....
 
I haven't said anything in this thread, because I said it all in about a three page dissertation in the last l-o-o-o-n-g thread on the subject. I didn't think anything else could be said, but I guess I was wrong.

Anyway, Ijust wanted you guys to know that I'm reading the thread, even if I haven't contributed. All I could do is repeat myself.

####

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw
... My Ken instructor is a short little fat guy ...
Click to expand...

Bailey,
I'll bet you never said that to his face. :D
 
Gentlemen, I wanted to cover a couple of points that I don't think has been adequately addressed in the discussions of cutting competitions. Being involved with cutting contests in the Northwest I have learned much before I entered any contest from Wayne Goddards articles, testing, and machines that Wayne designed to test cutting ability. Wayne taught me about various edge geometeries that work the best on specific mediums. Wayne taught me to test and try out my blade to check preformance. When I sharpen a new rope cutting design I test the piece and sharpen the knife and thin the edge until I make it fail, then I stregthen the geometery and test until it doesn't fail. I know that by testing our designs and trying different approachs that we learn new stuff. If we know what the materials are that we are to cut I think the competitions will push us to make better more proven designs. Yes it is a fair analogy to compare race cars to competition knives, but because we have race cars we have higher preformance safer more dependable vehicles, the same can hold true for the knowledge that we gain cutting known mediums, it can make all of our knives better. Keep cutting and be safe....Ed Schempp
 
Welcome to BladeForums Ed. Congratulations on your magnificent achievement in rope cutting.

I have been trying to find an email address for you to discuss some mosaic damascus. You could let me know that this is ok by sending me an email. If you would prefer that I contact you by phone, please let me know on this thread. Thanks.
 
Ed,

Welcome to the BladeForums. Congrats on winning the NW cutting comp and on your Spyderco knife. Good job w/ the ergos, feels good in the hand!

-Jose
 
I do think I understand what the cutting comps are all about if only to the extent that I can reliably parrot back what others have said about them.

- I've got nothing against 50 year old farmers, most of them could take this 44 year old out to the tool shed and leave me there. For instance Ed Schempp is profiled in the December Blade, at 51 he can obviously cut. (Please excuse the personalized example).

Golf is just like the sword, which is why it is so popular in Japan. In the modern golf world 50 year olds do great, they don't any longer routinely beat the young guys. They say exactly the same kinds of thing about golf - Let the club do the work, yatta yatta. Then a bunch of someones came along who had all that, and had been playing for 18 years at 20 years of age, and were bulked up on weights. OK, so it was a nice romantic theory.

-I'm all for forged knives, and forged anything. I am the chisel version of a knife collector in terms of Japanese woodworking tools, and a full time user to boot. I am totaly sold on the idea that the differences inherent in forged steel are significant. But I'm also a realist. If any major tool manufacturer was to consider that the demographic for which the Jpanese hand forged tools are made was significant, they would make inroads into it. And guess what they have been doing so very succesfuly. There is a multi pronged attack from increasingly competant American and Canadian makers, and from Japanese industrial concerns. Top artist level woodworkers have said about machine made saws that there isn't any meaningful difference between the best hand forged saws, and the best machine wacked out one. Understand this is coming from people who do real work with tools who dig hot tub sized holes in solid oak every day with nothing more than a mallet and a chisel (making planes). These people know steel, and do real work, not just constructive play. The cutting performance can be engineered in an industrial setting. There are industrial examples of these sword steel planes and chisels that use HSS cutting edges welded to iron backings. They perform extremely well, and most of the performance differences are more a way of working than absolute.

The guys who make these forged Japanese tools are the real decendants of sword makers, not the wanabees, if their production can be edged into by automation anyone's can. In fact some of the better known namees have their own version of mid-tech lines that employ greater degrees of production methodology. Of course aesthetic stuff is different. There isn't any reason to believe that knifemakers or toolmakers, will loose to manufacturers the ability to create art. But performance is a definite probably. If the market cares.

- "Your statement that Cold Steel knives would beat ABS knives because they sell more, is like saying that a Ford Taurus would beat a Ferrari in a car race because Ford sells more cards." Maybe you could point that statement out... Still it's all about the rules. Anyone can imagine a real race where the Taurus would beat the Ferrari, say a rally, where a low to the ground race car with only one seat and slicks might be at a disadvantage. Of course Ferrari race cars win whatever races they do for a good reason. They have to. If they aren't the fastest sportiest cars what are they? If Ford felt the same way they could just buy Ferrari, and get on with proving whatever they want. Forged knives are the same thing. They are either better cutters, or prettier. One hopes both, just like Ferrari. So they better figure out a way to keep winning the cutting argument.


I am not saying Cold Steel makes better knives than the best hand made work. Even Thompson doesn't claim that. I am saying that in a competitive setting that included everyone, there isn't any reason why a deep pocketed manufacturer can't buy the results they want. They could get a really top drawer asian cutlery maker, the best designer of cutting blades, and whoever it is who whether fat and short or tall and skinny is the best cutter, and buy their way past a hand made blade. They can lobby to change the contest rules to their favour, or come up with differencialy treated factory blades. The asian factory saws are differentialy treated at 25 teeth per inch. They somehow play an electric arc over the edge. I'm not counting these guys out on knife blades.

I don't know if there is enough interest in cutting competitions of one sort or another for it to get picked up for TV. Isn't that what we are talking about? Of course in the next major ramping up of specialty chanels who is to say there won't be such interest. My main point is that it isn't in the ABS' interest to loose control of this property. Either there is a way to raise a legal barrier (not all that likely, but maybe), or you have to get your hands dirty and manage change. If you do that, you may slow the rate of loss of control and retain a valuable property. If cutting competitions are destined to catch on then ultimately they will seek out the money and that doesn't bode well for the continued participation of hand made knives.
 
Hey guys, this is still an interesting thread... Ed, it was great watching you in Puyallup... First time I saw you was the first year you won in Eugene, I think, and then again 6 years later in Eugene again and this fall doing 11 in Puyallup. Totally awesome...

Protactical... I like what ya wrote... but if you'd boil it all down to the last sentence... you'll get to what I'm thinking....
"If cutting competitions are destined to catch on then ultimately they will seek out the money and that doesn't bode well for the continued participation of hand made knives."

What I see is simply limiting it to any hand made knife being allowed to compete. That's "HANDMADE" (and however we try and define that one!LOL!!!) by a sole author and under what ever overall specs that are decided upon... no 'manufactured' knives (again... definitions to be decided!)

Now, we hear stuff about ninjas swinging against farmers... Okay, hire a professional cutter...everyone submits a knife, have him swing every submission... and grade them on cutting ability and blade survival.

just my thoughts...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top