Mosaic pin help

Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
133
A couple quick newbie questions.

I'd like to make my own mosaic pins. I've got the bits and pieces but have no idea what to use to fill the voids. I'm sure it's some kind of epoxy, but I can't think of anything that can be mixed, colored, and be thin enough to work into the tube. Is there a faq or set of instructions for this?

Also, I haven't worked up the nerve to start metalworking yet so I'm working with existing blades. Actually I think it's helping me take things 1 step at a time so my wife doesn't kill me for a complete consumption of time. And I'm really enjoying working on the scales, and showing some improvement. Anyway, the blades I have are drilled for smaller pins and I'd like to use my soon to be made mosaics. They are 440c, can I use a regular drill bit or am I just going to end up with dull bits? I have a HF drill press that I can adjust the spindle speed if that's any help.

Thanks in advance!
 
For the rivets, mix up some slow cure epoxy and dye it the desired color (K&G dyes work excellent) in a small medicine cup.You want at least a one hour epoxy, as thin as possible. The West System and System One brands are good. Warming it a bit helps lower the viscosity,too. Put a piece of plastic tubing on the end of your assembled mosaic tube and put the other end in the epoxy. Suck on the tube like a straw (or use a vacuum) and draw the epoxy up the rivet until about two inches shows in the plastic tube. Take the rivet out of the epoxy and turn so the plastic tube is downward. Pinch off the tube in the area with the epoxy showing (to avoid an air bubble going back up )with a vise grip or in a vise.Add a drop of the resin to the upright end if the epoxy has settled any, and let it cure. Cut off the plastic tube and sand the ends to show the pattern. Jantz sells all the supplies to make mosaic rivets. They stock copper, brass,nickel, and stainless in many sizes and shapes.
http://www.jantzsupply.com/

For the holes, you will need to drill them out with a carbide bits or use a carbide tapered reamer (Jantz carries both,too.). Use your drill press, and clamp down the blade well. I run them fast and flood with coolant. Nathan can give you better advice on the speed and coolant requirements.
Stacy
 
Water based enamel paint works well as a colorant. Go to your local hobbie shop and purchase it in 1 oz sizes. A little goes a real long way.
 
I've used black and white marine epoxy that you can get for about 5 bucks at any hardware store. I make my mosaic pins in one inch sections so I can get the epoxy inside easier. It also helps to reduce wasted materials. White and black contrast nicely against brass, especially when you put a copper or stainless rod inside. I haven't found a need to use colored epoxy.

Its easiest if you squirt the epoxy, and colorant if you have some, into the corner of a Ziploc bag and smoosh it around to mix it. Then cut the corner off and squeeze it into the tube like a cake decorator. I found that spinning the rods as I put them inside the tube helped to ensure all the voids were filled. The tape the bottom so the epoxy can't run out as it heats up and gets runnier. Let them sit vertically until the epoxy has cured.

Hope that helps,
BJ
 
For black coloring, powered charcoal works well also. When I make mine, I figure out hte pattern in the tube, push the insides halfway out one side and smear really well with your colored epoxy. Push it back in and halfway out the other side and smear and push back in. Clean up with an acetone rag and tape ends until cured. Its messy this way but it works. Also when you cut an inch or two off to use, it does'nt hurt to squeeze super glue on one end and let it travel down. This will fill anything that the epoxy may have missed like the inside of small tubing that is part of your pattern make up.
 
Thanks for the advice. I picked up a bunch of misc. tubes and some 2 hour epoxy. Is there something to thin out the epoxy or just try and keep it warm and fluid? And how much is usually needed per tube?

I've got an inkjet refill kit with different color inks to use as mixers. Good idea or bad idea?

And back in the day I converted an old aquarium pump into a fairly powerful vacuum pump. I'm thinking about doing another one if I can find the bits and pieces in the basement. If it works on the epoxy would anyone want a walkthrough? The thought of sucking on wet epoxy makes me gag a little :)
 
Try the method I suggested for mixing the epoxy. It helps in preventing bubbles, which is easy to get when mixing with a stick.
 
I tried using a brake vacuum pump to suck the epoxy into the tubes, but it did not work at all. Epoxy was way too stiff. So I ended up doing the "smear" technique, which does work except for filling small tubes.

Until I started using the dry pigments from K&G, I used Testor's model paint as a colorant. That works very well too.

I like the idea of using superglue to fill voids; is there a way to color that stuff?
 
I had some small tuperware containers that I got from the dollar store. I mixed the epoxy up in the container and set it down into a bowl of boiling water to get the epoxy as runny as possible. I then take my small propane torch and run it up and down the pin a couple times (don't over heat here as it will become real thin and pull right through)I have a Dayton vacuum pump that works great. I did them in 6" sections and made 5 of them and they all turned out great and I haven't found any voids in them yet.
 
Heating the epoxy in boiling water is a great idea! Do you know whether that will cause it to set up more quickly? I know heat hastens its curing, but don't know by how much or whether it would be a factor in making pins. If I can get it runny enough I may try the brake vacuum pump again.

This is a timely thread, as I used up my last batch of pins today and am going to have to make a day of mosaic pins again soon. ;)
 
I am not sure I have a slow set epoxy and let it sit for about 24hrs before I cut a couple up and it was cured all the was through.
 
Ok, tried 'Devcon 2 ton epoxy' with a 30 minute working time and 2 hour handling time. Stuck in boiling water so it was nice and liquid, combined with blank ink.

Complete and total failure.

Ink did not mix at all and looked like black oil drops in water. Then about 30 seconds after beginning mixing the whole thing foamed up and turned solid in about 15 seconds. I'm not sure as yet if the temperature was the reason for the foaming or a chemical reaction with the ink. I'll have to pick up some more epoxy to experiment further :)
 
You are not mixing the water and the epoxy together are you? I just float the epoxy container in a cup of boiling water.
 
No, no, no. No water, just used it to heat up the epoxy.

DSCF2212.jpg


It created a vacuum at the bottom and caved in the sides of the cup. Started out about 1/2" deep or so, cup is about the same size as a shot glass. Kind of exciting there for a minute. Rock solid after a minute or so.
 
I picked up 4 more tubes of the devcon and some enamel craft paint. Very limited success with this combo. First batch I boiled the tube until it was very runny. Mixed the epoxy and then dropped some paint in. Moments after the paint hit the epoxy went all crazy again. I don't know if the temperature difference between the hot epoxy and room temperature paint triggers the catalytic action or not, but the epoxy went superhot and melted the cup down.

2nd batch I heated the epoxy again, but not as long. Mixed with paint and got a good thin mix. I think I got 1 full pin out of this one using the tube and suction, which feels like it left little hickies inside my mouth. Stuck the 2nd tube in and started sucking on it. A minute later and the epoxy started gumming up and setting again.

Then I tried leaving the epoxy at room temp and just using paint to thin it. Too thick to work so I tried warming the complete mix but just in warm/hot water. Same results as the 2nd tube. 4th attempt same thing. So I think I've got 1 good pin and 3 that hopefully have enough to get a few good pieces out of.

The devcon stuff is supposed to be workable for 30 minutes and a working temp of up to 200 degrees, but it's just not working that way. I'm guessing I just lucked upon the sweet spot for the first good pin.

I guess I'll start looking for some of the golf epoxy to try. As is I'm wondering if you couldn't just use paint alone and avoid the epoxy altogether.
 
Isopropyl alcohol will thin epoxy.
Heat cures epoxy. That is why you are having trouble. A LITTLE heat will thin it, but drastically decreases curing time.
 
The problems here are that you are trying to do things that are not intended for the epoxy.

First:
I understand that many folks have tried to mix all kind of things with epoxy to color it....with a variety of results. The problems arise in the fact that a lot of things aren't soluble in epoxy. Other things may affect the cure rate and final hardness of the epoxy. Use only dyes that are made for epoxy resins and you will have no trouble with this part. These dyes can be purchased at any supplier who sells epoxy and fiberglass. Some knife suppliers sell them ,too. I highly recommend the dry powders sold by K&G. The small jar will last most makers many years. Cost is $7, IIRC. I use a flat toothpick to pick up the small amount needed to dye a medicine cup of resin.
With all due respect to those who posted earlier, paint and ink are bad choices for epoxy dyes.

Second:
Some people try to thin the epoxy with heating it and the tube. This will work in moderation, but also affects the cure rate.Warming the resin to 80-100F is OK, heating to 200F is not. Too much heat can also result in the resin never getting hard right. The answer is not to try to make the epoxy thinner, but to use a thinner epoxy. The stuff in the tubes at the hardware store is made to be thick and not run. The stuff in the small bottles at the woodworking suppliers and fiberglass repair places come in a variety of viscosities....some nearly water thin. These are usually harder and smoother resins when cured,too. I think SYSTEM THREE CLEAR COAT is tops here. Woodcraft supply sells it in a 12oz. kit for $24. This is a super resin for doing paracord handles, too, BTW. It also has a long shelf life, over two years. (Generally, try to use epoxy resins within one year of purchase in most cases)

Third:
Making the epoxy thinner by adding all kinds of things that will dissolve it is counterproductive. After all, many of these thinners are used to break down the epoxy bond. You don't want anything that has even a trace of water as a thinner. Alcohol and even acetone are not good for the job (despite the prevalence of their use). The only thinner you want is either a thinner marked "for epoxy resins" or a high volatility lacquer thinner.

Read this:
Here is an excellent article on this subject by the folks who make epoxy. Take two or three minutes and read it. I think it will answer many of the problems people have with epoxy.
http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Glues/WestSystem/Thinning/Thinning.html

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I know I always seem to come around to this (as does a certain metallurgist who I won't name, but his initials rhyme with KC), but -

Don't just do something because I ,or anyone else, say "Do this", "I do this", " So-and-so does this".....!

Understand what is happening in the chemistry, metallurgy, physics,mechanics,etc. of any project will end with better results.....and you will have a better understanding of how to control the results.
You could post a thread that says ,"How do I...." and spend hours reading and posting back, getting twenty different ,"It worked for me" ideas. OR, you could google ,"Thinning epoxy", Using Epoxy", etc. and read the real information in ten minutes. The results? Under the post it system you might get the job done just fine, but wouldn't necessarily know if it was right or wrong, and may not have any idea how to change the process to apply it to other tasks. In the research it scenario, you will gain some knowledge, and the ability to use it in many ways. It might be the nerd way to do it, but the leaders in any field, including knife makers, generally are the ones who have done their homework. A good example is that ,if you read the article I suggested above, you would learn that warming the scales prior to epoxying them on the knife will greatly improve the bond. How many of you knew that....honestly?

Stacy
 
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Thanks for the article. I was already pretty sure that my colorant was reacting and helping things along. My biggest problem with materials is the town I live in. Opening up some form of specialty shop is the quickest route to bankruptcy that I know of. So if i can't find it at lowes, walmart, home depot etc. I can't find it around here. So any epoxy dyes and even wood more exotic than pine doesn't exist. And I'm cheap, so that doesn't always help.

The 2-ton stuff I tried was the thinnest I could find short of superglue, but I've got maybe 2 more places to look. Dye is def. going to have to be ordered in. Best part of new hobbies though is learning new stuff and buying new tools. Well, probably reverse that order.
 
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