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Most over-rated production knife brand?
- Thread starter shqxk
- Start date
Good point. Same with companies who do the same with their grinds, leading their fans to believe their grinds can defy geometry somehow.
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Ratman,
Sorry for the long posts. Historically, I have found that like in text messaging, when it comes more than just casual references people easily take things the wrong way (from the intended purpose), as they are many times just looking for short answers to move on about their day and subsequently forget. I tend to many times over compensate by trying to explain in more detail, or give supportive information when for the most part others don't care enough to do their own research (one of my many problems ).
It has been a number of years since I pursued answers to the true reasons. That said, to my knowledge nobody from Blade Mag. published any specific reason(s). In my mind, this presumes potential legal issues that might include loss of revenue for prejudice. Reasons that I can remember reading about included things like CS (Cold Steel) marketing knives as weapons, and marketing in a way that was perceived to the major publications and those of the governing community to be negative to the public perception of a knife being a threatening device (potentially leading to additional regulations ...). Lynn being who he was/is fought back as best he could, and guess what the reaction further resistance, controversy and separation from the community in general. If anything, it appears Lynn did the best he could to use this to his advantage, and endeavored to create a lasting company where it took decades for the industry to catch up and for other manufacturers to successfully market knives into the weapons market (just look at the past 15-yrs and the tacticool market explosion ).
I think these answers very plausible, given the way CS went to market (but just some of my opinions based on history and research I have done years ago - and remember that opinions are to a--holes, as a--holes are to everyone and we all have our own ...). Consider why there is to this day (over 50 years later from 1958) still a Federal ban on switchblades (a perception that they are threatening, from public perception of how they were portrayed in a play/musical called West Side Story circa mid 1950's OMG reality check!!). In general, I believe those governing the knife industry felt threaten much the same way, and history was written into the laws of our land as public proof. If you have any knowledge of who Bernard Levine is, and some of the things has has done within the knife community, you may wish to do a little research on this. If this all sounds far-fetched to you, please do a little research on the subject.
I will even provide you a starting link:
How Switchblades were Banned
Consider the capture below from a 1996 CS catalog. This I would suspect was received as threatening to the knife community in general, and specifically to LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) of the era as it could be construed to be bad-guy knife, good-guy gun scenario (much similarity to West Side Story and the 1958 Federal ban on switchblades). Its only been in recent years that LEOs have been really exploring, through focused first hand training, knife-on-gun as a potentially serious threat and extending engagement training distances to much greater ranges as a result. Much current day philosophy includes what was presented back in the 90s by CS.
On the flip side, I can find numerous articles they published by well-known and respected in the industry related to using knives for defensive purposes (example: Massad Ayoob). This in my mind showed prejudice against CS specifically and is one an example of why I stopped supporting these publications.
Years ago Lynn used to write what I think was called The Riposte, and there were years worth of archived copies of articles published available for anyone to download and read. I can remember Lynn addressing these issues directly, with no replies from the other side. Mind you, these were therefore one-sided reflections of the events and must be considered as such (but however at least an inside view of the situation). I just did a Google for Cold Steel Riposte and can see an archive-link to one of these articles. Do that Google search for yourself, and I expect you will see the same link returned that I got.
Link:
Google for Cold Steel Riposte
3rd search result down on my search takes me here:
Link:
Riposte - Blade Magazine Locks out Cold Steel
"Lynn Thompson's Riposte : Blade Magazine Locks Out Cold Steel. The Bible tells us there are two types of sin. The first type is the sin of commission where we ..."
It appears the document has been removed from the Cold Steel site (I remember years back The Riposte moderated down, and appears may have possibility been taken down completely at some point or perhaps just temporarily). My guess as it was a bit too controversial for mainstream community ?), as have many of the more controversial articles. One would need to research a little deeper than the internet and Google (deep web search), for this subject matter. This is too bad for most folks, as I really enjoyed reading some of the articles posted here as they were many times quite far from typical articles published of the day (ie, much more conservative and in promotion of manufactures and selling vs. informational on a larger platform).
I will be interested to read others thoughts on the history of this , as it relates to your questions ;-)
--------------
On a side note, I had previously reserved commenting on an opinion that you raised related to Japan being known historically for the quality of their steel. I did not want to sound confrontational, as I believe many have similar opinions to those you mentioned. From your post, it sounds like you are fairly adamant about your views on this (much of the reason it sounds you are displeased with CS transition from Japan to Taiwan). If you have any interest in perhaps challenging what you already know in respect to greater awareness, I will leave you a link to an interesting video that discusses and illustrates first-hand the historic quality of Japanese blade steel, the Katana, etc. as those things compare to reality and other options throughout the ages. I would recommend opting in for the subtitles/closed captioned English subtitles. I believe this to be a fair challenge to miss-impressions of what people talk about related to the history of steel in general and more specifically Japanese steel and the design and geometry for the infamous Katana ;-) If you have the patience to make it to the end of the video, I believe you will enjoy some enlightenment (just remember like all things, opinions vary based on experiences - especially when discussion move to country v. country). If however, one can get past confrontational thinking and attitudes, fresh learning can begin new revelations. I found the entire video very interesting. If on the other hand you find the beginning to be boring , at least fast forward to 19:20 to pick up on some of the final conclusions. Additionally, please look past the title as is barely scratches the surface on information presented here.
Unless you are fluent in German, I would suggest holding off on this video until you can sit down behind a large screen capable of easily pausing to read the subtitles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVCWGwvctt4
My history and experiences illustrate to me continually, that
The More I Learn, The Less I Know.
Hopefully something of value to you here
Regards,
Spey--that was a well written and extremely thorough response. Thank you for taking the time. I read through it and learned some things I did not know prior.
I am always willing to challenge any view I may have. That's how I turn knowledge into wisdom. I was dissatisfied with a couple of my Taiwanese CS knives so it did color my perception admittedy. As you, and many others have told me, the current line seems to work just fine. Like I mentioned, I do own a 3v recon tanto and, to be fair, it is indistinguishable from other 3v I own and enjoy. I am willing to give CS a second look. Really the only main thing was the place of manufacture. If that is not an issue, then that's great to hear. I will try an SRK like I have been wanting to!
Indeed I have found value in what you have written. I do not speak German unfortunately, but I would like to watch your vids over the weekend when I don't have to work.
Thanks for a *productive* back and forth!
I am always willing to challenge any view I may have. That's how I turn knowledge into wisdom. I was dissatisfied with a couple of my Taiwanese CS knives so it did color my perception admittedy. As you, and many others have told me, the current line seems to work just fine. Like I mentioned, I do own a 3v recon tanto and, to be fair, it is indistinguishable from other 3v I own and enjoy. I am willing to give CS a second look. Really the only main thing was the place of manufacture. If that is not an issue, then that's great to hear. I will try an SRK like I have been wanting to!
Indeed I have found value in what you have written. I do not speak German unfortunately, but I would like to watch your vids over the weekend when I don't have to work.
Thanks for a *productive* back and forth!
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No doubt he did not buy it.
But don't forget...the entire premise of this thread is to talk about knives one does not like.
In fact, I suppose, one could argue that the folks defending knives are off topic (and kinda trolling!)
That's how it works in the "Name your favorite knives" threads.
Anyway, back to the topic, in no particular order: Brous, KAI/ZT, Shirogorov.
But his complaint was of the nature of, "I wish Spyderco would use G-10 on their knives."
Maybe if they did, he would no longer feel they are overrated. Like "How can all these people rate Spyderco so highly when they don't use G-10! That's crazy!"
So, I suppose he could have worded it better. But it was on topic! :thumbup:
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Ah, but it's a discussion, (as someone pointed out
), so anything relating to things that are overrated---including why one might have a different thought about that---is on topic. :thumbup:I'm not enough of a knife-hater to be able to contribute much to the ongoing chorus of dissing though...except for Mantis of course.
But they don't really count as knives anyway.
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The problem is there aren't enough knives I look at and go, "nice, but overrated, not worth my money." Thus I end up buying the damn thing. Before I even get it I'm already thinking that I need another one.
We need more overrated knives to save our wallet. Green backs is quickly becoming an endangered species.
We need more overrated knives to save our wallet. Green backs is quickly becoming an endangered species.
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Ah, but it's a discussion, (as someone pointed out
I'm not enough of a knife-hater to be able to contribute much to the ongoing chorus of dissing though...except for Mantis of course.
But they don't really count as knives anyway.
Sure...but not to get too deep into the weeds, the OP did specifically ask for "over rated brands"
and not for defenses of brands.
I mean if it was a "What do you like about Brand X?" if one came in complaining about Brand X, then they would be off-topic/trollish.
Anyway...I'm getting off topic and "meta", as the hipsters say.
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Like honestly what are these companies thinking, coming out with like 15 different models and acting like you only need one of them. Who are they kidding! How am I supposed to help myself when there are like 92 different Spydercos alone that I can't live another minute without.
This should be illigal. Us addicts can't help ourselves. Economy up or down we need that steel! This is why dope dealing is illigal the people can't help themselves and end up spending all their money (and then some). It is like guaranteed profits because we will go into knife withdrawl without em.
This should be illigal. Us addicts can't help ourselves. Economy up or down we need that steel! This is why dope dealing is illigal the people can't help themselves and end up spending all their money (and then some). It is like guaranteed profits because we will go into knife withdrawl without em.
Yes I did understand it, and I am sorry for the overly strong adjectives...
If you read my post you will see I was trying to establish a chronology where Seki Japan was among the most early and most common of early Cold Steel sources, even for mid-range prices, and I ignored that in your post you seemed to "shoehorn" China in as a main source of the "early" mid-range stuff...
And your response was in the context of you quoting this from Ratman79, where China production is not mentioned at all:
"Quote Originally Posted by Ratman79 View Post
Well, it's just that for the older models I have, the san mai versions and others, they were all made in Seki City and are excellent. Seki is known the world over for the quality of its steels. And its legendary quality control. To switch production to Taiwan from Japan seems like a huge fall from grace. I am not sure of all the reasons behind the switch but obviously it would be cheaper to produce in Taiwan for one. It seems like a shortcut. Not to mention that in the very beginning, CS was made in the USA--Ventura, CA I think? That was a golden era for CS imo. For me it is just a disappointment to have a very nice tool in your hand only to find it was made in Taiwan.
Thanks for your reply."
This is you first sentence in response to quoting the above:
"It sounds that we have differing experience and opinions related to Taiwan production knives."
So that is the statement that I responded to, because, in the context of Ratman79's quote, it did seem you found Taiwan made knives at least not to be a step down from Japan, and also it is a fact that Japan has among the oldest of all Cold Steel production, so chronologically it comes before Taiwan.
As to what the Chinese production was like, I don't know, but Taiwan being a step up I would agree with you is very likely... That still allows for older Seki City Cold Steels to be significantly better value than Taiwan production, especially if it is bead-blasted Taiwan, and that the Taiwan-made edge-holding might be worse (a hard to pin down matter)...
To me, just the Japanese nylon or leather sheaths made a huge difference in perceived value...
(As an aside, I had a Aus-8 Seki Made Trailmaster in the early 90s, and I bought last year a San Mai III Trailmaster, also from Seki Japan, and, in both point taper symmetry and the thinner convexed edge geometry, the old Aus-8 knife of 1992 was far, far superior to the 2015 SM III... Edge holding was great on both, but the 1992 knife was simply far better: It could cut floating newspapers sheets in half, a near-unthinkable feat with the newer one... So even "new" Japan is not always as good as "old" Japan...)
I almost included as an example of Japanese finish quality my Pro-Lite folder ("PRO LITE" CS-57LC), because it was grind finished, but I now think it was Taiwan made...: I did find the grind finish as impeccable as anything from Seki city, and probably even better... But a Seki-City finish, especially when looking more heavily striated, in the peculiar way they sometimes do it, still makes erasing scratches with sandpaper unusually easy...
I also remember that the Pro Lite's edge behaviour was somewhat underwhelming... It seemed extremely prone to intractable wire edges that never broke off but just flip-flopped... Other knives did break the wire edge more cleanly at the time, so this seemed a peculiarity that made it hard to sharpen. Hard to say how objective that is from me, but I remember this as surprisingly prominent in that knife's life. I otherwise still consider it the best designed folder I have ever seen...
So I will second what Ratman79 said about "Old" Seki City steel performance: I have tested a few 30 year vintage Al Mars, and even cheaper "old Seki" made brands like a huge Parker-Imai 10" blade Buckmaster clone, all vintage 30 + years old, and the edge holding performance of these, at fine below 15 DPS edge angles, is just outstanding: Nothing I have experienced among high end custom makers is in any way better, especially considering the lowly Aus-6 used on the Al Mars(!).
I suspect that the bottom line is that Seki steel is simply better checked and "cleaner", a important edge-holding factor that is rarely mentioned, as it is out of the hands of any easy verification...
Also coloring negatively my view of Taiwanese production is simply that many of my favourite old models, like the Peacekeepers, were either no longer made or sported that horrible Securex sheath and/or a beadblasted finish...
Maybe some of the new Taiwan stuff is equivalent, but I still occasionally hunt to overpay on Ebay for the vintage Seki Cold Steels...
Gaston
Yeah, for example they've made great version of the 0801 without that bullshit pattern on the handle, but only as limited edition...
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Gaston, I always enthusiastically read your posts and devour with interest anything you say about vintage folderrs, as your experiences and preferences mirror mine more often than not.
In all honesty I am also guilty of overpaying for many vintage and old Japanese Cold Steels, they are my all time favorite folding knives and the greatest CS has ever produced,
I am constantly surfing the net and bidding on eBay to catch a deal on old voyagers and such. Main reasons being that they are thinner and lighter, and their steel much superior IMO.
It's taken me years to realise and see that it has something special, a "magical" thing on it, that makes that VG1, AUS8 and Seki steel in general much better:
takes a quicker and cleaner edge and has amazing edge holding and keen sharpness properties, really superior to the other steels both from CS and other companies that I've tried.
Just my $0.02, and agreement with your thoughts based on my experiences
Gaston, I always enthusiastically read your posts and devour with interest anything you say about vintage folderrs, as your experiences and preferences mirror mine more often than not.
In all honesty I am also guilty of overpaying for many vintage and old Japanese Cold Steels, they are my all time favorite folding knives and the greatest CS has ever produced,
I am constantly surfing the net and bidding on eBay to catch a deal on old voyagers and such. Main reasons being that they are thinner and lighter, and their steel much superior IMO.
It's taken me years to realise and see that it has something special, a "magical" thing on it, that makes that VG1, AUS8 and Seki steel in general much better:
takes a quicker and cleaner edge and has amazing edge holding and keen sharpness properties, really superior to the other steels both from CS and other companies that I've tried.
Just my $0.02, and agreement with your thoughts based on my experiences
Thanks! Another old favourite of mine (circa 1994) was the fully serrated 4" Voyageur Tanto, similar to this one: The geometry of the serrations I remember seemed to be exceptional, as was the steel...:
I probably should look an old one up... We do agree on a lot...
Gaston
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:thumbup:
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