Mountain Lions

[J33psru1e]

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[ranger88]

Raven is right. Don't people use hiking staffs anymore? It makes the walking easier, and it's easy to learn to use it as a good defensive weapon. Some places, the spearhead might not go over too well, but you can give them the shaft any time!

Now thats a good idea. One problem with animal attacks is that most of the time you wont see them coming. Big cats like to stalk their prey, and sneak up on them. if you look at most attacks, the victim was caught off guard. I wonder if you even have time to go for a knife or a pistol. A big stick might be the way to go. Going with a friend is smart too. nothing like the buddy system in bear and cat country. :thumbup:

 

[bulgron]

I had a friend once who used to own a ranch up in Angel's Camp, CA. They had mountain lions around the place -- kept eating his cats and later started in on a neighbor rancher's cattle. The thing about those mountain lions is you really can't see them if they don't want you to. I've never seen anything blend into the local vegetation as well as a mountain lion.

I used to carry a .357 on his land, but I knew if a cat came after me I'd never get it out in time.

But for some reason mountain lions never bothered me as much as the one predator that no one has mentioned yet in this thread. Many years ago I used to winter camp along the north shore of Lake Superior. I was out snowshoeing in the woods one day, then decided to cut back to the road on the way home. Sure enough, I cut across wolf tracks. A whole pack had been shadowing me, maybe 30 yards out, and I never knew they were there. Not that was scary.

 

[Grampa]

This is from an old article I've saved for years because this woman is one of my heros.This is word for word.
Woman kills mountain lion.
DOS RIOS.Calif.- A woman killed a mountain lion with a kitchen knife yesterday after the 60 pound animal attacked a group of campers and bit off her husband's thumb.
"I had a hell of a time getting the knife through its skin," said Robin Winslow, 48. Its tough,like shark."
The two men wrestled the mountain lion and held it down while Mrs. Winslow stabbed it in the stomach with a 12-inch serrated knife.

[This message has been edited by Lone Hunter (edited 11-27-2000).]

I remember this event! I also remember thinking at the time, "Why didn't she have a SHARP knife with her?"

 

[Return of the J.D.]

Some random musings on cougars:

Two members of my family have had worrisome cougar encounters (that they've known about--I have no doubt that there have been many unknowing close passes). In one, my brother was shadowed by one for a while in the NM rockies. In another, a relative reported intercepting one with a rifle bullet as it was inbound and airborne in a certain warm, West Coast state.

My impression is that situational awareness is the indispensable tool here. These cats attack from behind when they can, are incredibly well-camouflaged, and are built for stealth.

I have read that in 40% of the attacks on children, the children were in the company of their parents.

I have read of a fair number of cougar attacks that have been stopped with knives. My impression is that, as big cats go, these are not as hard to fend off as are some of their Asian and African relatives. I believe I've even read an account of Theodore Roosevelt killing a fighting cougar with a knife--kind of just to prove to himself that he could do it. (If I remember correctly, it was mixing it up with a couple of his hunting dogs.)

There are a number of books out there on cougar attacks. In one that I've been reading, which attempts to collect the best-documented accounts available, going back to at least the 1700s, I have noticed that there is one weapon that seems never to have worked, and that is the hatchet/tomahawk. The book I've read mentions at least three attacks in which the victim tried to fight the cat off with a hatchet, and in each time, died in the attempt. On reflection, the physics of this make sense: straight-in attack, aiming at head/neck. The cat closes the space with surprising speed. Hatchet, used in the instinctive way, cuts in a 3-to-4-inch arc about 3 or 4 feet out, and anything that doesn't happen to intersect with that 3-to-4-inch arc at just the right angle isn't going to get cut. If it does, the cut is likely to be toward the rear of the animal, instead of into some part that will stop the attack quickly. After the first swing, the cat is probably well within bad-breath range, and far too close for you to get anything but minimal performance from a hatchet.

Just some thoughts.

 

[tarmix101]

Some random musings on cougars:
I have read of a fair number of cougar attacks that have been stopped with knives. My impression is that, as big cats go, these are not as hard to fend off as are some of their Asian and African relatives. I believe I've even read an account of Theodore Roosevelt killing a fighting cougar with a knife--kind of just to prove to himself that he could do it. (If I remember correctly, it was mixing it up with a couple of his hunting dogs.)

There are a number of books out there on cougar attacks. In one that I've been reading, which attempts to collect the best-documented accounts available, going back to at least the 1700s, I have noticed that there is one weapon that seems never to have worked, and that is the hatchet/tomahawk. The book I've read mentions at least three attacks in which the victim tried to fight the cat off with a hatchet, and in each time, died in the attempt. On reflection, the physics of this make sense: straight-in attack, aiming at head/neck. The cat closes the space with surprising speed. Hatchet, used in the instinctive way, cuts in a 3-to-4-inch arc about 3 or 4 feet out, and anything that doesn't happen to intersect with that 3-to-4-inch arc at just the right angle isn't going to get cut. If it does, the cut is likely to be toward the rear of the animal, instead of into some part that will stop the attack quickly. After the first swing, the cat is probably well within bad-breath range, and far too close for you to get anything but minimal performance from a hatchet.

Just some thoughts.

Interesting read. Can you give me the title or Author of the book? Thanks for sharing:thumbup:

 

[Return of the J.D.]

Tarmix, I'm pretty sure it's Cougar Attacks: Encounters of the Worst Kind, by Kathy Etling. As I write this, Amazon's offering a used copy for under two bucks. I say "I'm pretty sure" because I don't have my copy with me just now, and I looked at a few on the topic before choosing this one. Kind of a lame name, I admit, but it's interesting reading.

 

[Doberman_Dave]

I won't bother trying to cite vague references to support this (Vancouver Island and Rockies Eastern Slopes) but:
1) attacks by adult cougars are generally fatal with the victim showing no signs of self defense
2) attacks by juvenile cougars are generally the ones you read about being fended off by the victim
3) awareness and reaction time are critical if you are considering defense
4) for defense, I'd vote for bear spray in spite of it's lack of testosterone appeal. It's quick, effective, and much more likely to be carried (weight and regulations). It's also good against bears. Since reaction time is also very important in bear attacks (most people basicly trip on the bear). Do practice getting the spray out of its holster and actually spraying it.

 

[Doberman_Dave]

Interesting comments above on deterrent value of being in a group. Does anbody know how it is with cougars? I can't recall a cougar attack on even two people.

For bears (grizzly and black), no attacks have ever been recorded on a group of six or more.

 

[Rainmaker870]

I won't bother trying to cite vague references to support this (Vancouver Island and Rockies Eastern Slopes) but:
1) attacks by adult cougars are generally fatal with the victim showing no signs of self defense
2) attacks by juvenile cougars are generally the ones you read about being fended off by the victim
3) awareness and reaction time are critical if you are considering defense
4) for defense, I'd vote for bear spray in spite of it's lack of testosterone appeal. It's quick, effective, and much more likely to be carried (weight and regulations). It's also good against bears. Since reaction time is also very important in bear attacks (most people basicly trip on the bear). Do practice getting the spray out of its holster and actually spraying it.

+1 on everything right up to the bear spray.... and that's only because I'm a gun guy at heart. In spite of that,we carry a can during spring and fall outings, when bear encounters are more statistically likely in the areas of southern Colorado that we frequent. We continue to carry firearms for primary defense as well.

I'm intrigued by points 1 and 2 above. Two anecdotes that will tend to support them:

1) On a drop camp elk hunt several years ago I hopped out for my morning squat. 2/3 of the way through my business I look up and saw - MAYBE 25' away - a full grown Tom eyeballing me. Nothing to do except stare back at him, and I SWEAR the s.o.b. was grinning. Twitch of the tail and he was gone, never to be seen again. If he'd wanted me, it was done before it even started: I'm a pretty woodsy guy and I never knew he was anywhere around.

2) Earlier this year I was in my own campsite on some acreage I own NNW of the Royal Gorge. A buddy and I had been drinking beer while our wives hung out, every once in a while we stepped out away from the firelight to take a leak. After my friend and his wife left for the evening I stepped out a little further than we'd been going - maybe 50' from the far edge of the firelight - and it smelled like I just walked through a litter box; talk about the hair standing up on your neck.... Next morning the smell was still there, nice and strong and pungent, unmistakably from a cat. Ground was too hard and dry to take tracks, but my best guess is the cat strolled up through a nearby ravine and pissed back at us to tell us what he thought of the intrusion. Again, if he'd wanted either of us he probably could have got it done. Second time, to my recollection, our camp has been sprayed in the last two years.

They're stealthy critters. For my money a cat is the most efficient predator-mammal on the planet.

 

[Rainmaker870]

Well in Colorado, they have a 3.5" blade law so it makes it tougher to carry a large fixed blade into the hills. It makes you feel like a criminal when you run into the ranger. Something needs to change on this I would say.

Molinee, check that reg again. When I moved out of Colorado three years ago, that 3.5" limit was for a concealed folding / fixed blade only; had nothing to do with open carry in the hills or forests.

 

[m_calingo]

I just read an article in this month's Readers Digest about a hiker in Colorado who had an encounter with a mountain lion. Because he was only out for a few hours in an area he knew well, he only carried a swiss army knife. During the struggle, he tried to stab the cat in the neck and was rewarded with the blade folding up on his finger (probably the least of his worries at the moment!).

Wow, here's a guy who's being attacked by a cougar, and he still manages to open the blade on a SAK???? I guess the lion had him by the legs?

I wonder if he now carries a handgun, bear spray, a tactical folder, or all of the above?

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

Slightly off topic . . . I recall about 7 years ago in Upstate NY there was a series of bobcat attacks -- in broad daylight. One of these attacks took place in a school playground full of children. Bit the wrong kid. 14 year old farmboy strangled it to death. Every bobcat tested positive for rabies.

 

[bigbcustom]

My thoughts for what they're worth:

Hiking in Colorado, I have spoken with a ranger on a trail with a Battle Rat (9.5"blade for those who aren't familiar with it) carried inverted on my pack strap...no issues. I keep meaning to get some pepper spray, but haven't gotten around to it yet. To be honest, I think my Fallkniven F1 in it's chest sheath would be better dealing with an angry cat than the battle rat just due to difficulty manipulating that huge blade to stab something attached to you with four sets of claws and one set of teeth.

Experts say if you see a mtn lion that looks like it's going to get froggy, the best defense is to get as big as you can, stare right at it, and walk/run towards it making as much noise as you can (from the forest service guide). Also interesting to note, cougars rarely attack anything bigger than they are, and will cease and desist if they believe they may become incapacitated (ie a stab wound) since they instinctively know that if they lose the ability to hunt, they will die.

Bears...different story. The guide says to avoid eye contact and back away slowly. If a grizz attacks you curl up in the fetal position protecting your genitals and neck and play dead as much as is possible because it's just defending its territory or some such. If a black attacks you fight for your life because it's going to eat you. (very condensed version of what the forest service guide says). I wouldn't put too much faith in my ability to defend myself with a knife against a bear, but there is the story of hugh glass who killed a grizz with his bowie, was left to die, and made it 400 miles out of the woods afterwords.

well...enough rambling for me.

 

[hwyhobo]

Bears...different story. The guide says to avoid eye contact and back away slowly. If a grizz attacks you curl up in the fetal position protecting your genitals and neck and play dead as much as is possible

I wonder if that guide ever tried his own advice?

 

[billgow]

I have to agree with the guy who wrote that a knife would be almost useless, as would a pistol. I know a little about what a pistol can do in steady hands and it ain’t much. They’re dicey on two legged vermin and highly inferior on four legged predators intending to make a meal out of you. If you are going to carry a pistol, let me tell you right now that hollow point bullets are not the way to go on animals, they’re made to work on humans. Those pip squeak semi-autos are all a joke, go with a magnum revolver shooting the heaviest chunk it’ll handle, preferably hard cast with a great big, flat nose.

Allow me to use energy calculated (in Ft. Lbs.) from my ballistics program for illustration:

CTG.....................Energy@10 yards.................Energy@100 yards
223......................1142.................................889
30-30...................1564.................................1178
44 Mag.................1143.................................762

Do you honestly want to have a 223 in your hands when the SHTF? What makes you think the 44 magnum on your hip is going to stop a charge? In addition to being a wimp in comparison to a real hunting rifle, using one effectively in a pucker situation is highly unlikely. Cops regularly miss bad guys with a whole magazine of ammo and regardless of how they’re portrayed, they do get better training than 99% of us “John Q. Public” types.

I guess the up side to having a fixed blade is that while that cat is gnawing on you, you’ll be able to stick it once or twice. If it makes you feel better, by all means, go with it.

A few years ago I was on a search with our Sheriff’s SAR team and one of my pals and I came to a dead stop in our tracks as we came over a hill and saw bear scat all over the place. The hippies that ran the outfit forbade us from carrying a gun and we were both in compliance. My pal picked up a stout stick and cleaned it off a bit as we began to continue on our way. I chuckled at him and told him it wouldn’t do any good if we ran into four-legged trouble to which he responded, “I don’t have to out run the bear, all I have to do is out run you. That’s what the stick is for.”

 

[bigbcustom]

I have to agree with the guy who wrote that a knife would be almost useless, as would a pistol. I know a little about what a pistol can do in steady hands and it ain’t much. They’re dicey on two legged vermin and highly inferior on four legged predators intending to make a meal out of you. If you are going to carry a pistol, let me tell you right now that hollow point bullets are not the way to go on animals, they’re made to work on humans. Those pip squeak semi-autos are all a joke, go with a magnum revolver shooting the heaviest chunk it’ll handle, preferably hard cast with a great big, flat nose.

Allow me to use energy calculated (in Ft. Lbs.) from my ballistics program for illustration:

CTG.....................Energy@10 yards.................Energy@100 yards
223......................1142.................................889
30-30...................1564.................................1178
44 Mag.................1143.................................762

Do you honestly want to have a 223 in your hands when the SHTF? What makes you think the 44 magnum on your hip is going to stop a charge? In addition to being a wimp in comparison to a real hunting rifle, using one effectively in a pucker situation is highly unlikely. Cops regularly miss bad guys with a whole magazine of ammo and regardless of how they’re portrayed, they do get better training than 99% of us “John Q. Public” types.

I guess the up side to having a fixed blade is that while that cat is gnawing on you, you’ll be able to stick it once or twice. If it makes you feel better, by all means, go with it.

A few years ago I was on a search with our Sheriff’s SAR team and one of my pals and I came to a dead stop in our tracks as we came over a hill and saw bear scat all over the place. The hippies that ran the outfit forbade us from carrying a gun and we were both in compliance. My pal picked up a stout stick and cleaned it off a bit as we began to continue on our way. I chuckled at him and told him it wouldn’t do any good if we ran into four-legged trouble to which he responded, “I don’t have to out run the bear, all I have to do is out run you. That’s what the stick is for.”

Keep in mind, however, that ft lbs energy isn't the be all end all. Alaskan guides carry twelve gauge shotguns loaded with slugs for use against brown bears....less energy that a 30-06.....why do you think they carry them instead of something with more ft lbs impact energy? I will totally agree with you on the hollow point argument though. You want to make sure you get good penetration with whatever you are shooting and hollow points won't always do it. I will take slight exception to your "as would a pistol be useless" argument. I have personally killed four black bears ranging from 150lbs to 400lbs at ranges from 20-40 yards with a 44 mag model 29 only one took a finishing shot, and none of them went more than ten yards after I shot them. I have been with hound hunters numerous times and seen more than ten cougars and 8-10 bears dispatched with a model 686 .357 at ranges of less than 20 yards with only a few taking more than one shot, and none of them doing any damage to dogs or human after they were shot. Couple of torn up dogs pre shooting though. As for a knife...useless for a decent sized bear, but there is anecdotal evidence supporting the ability of a knife armed human to defend against a mtn lion. Do a search for Mtn lion attacks on google, there is a sight with all attacks in last fifty years in us and canada listed...several of them were disuaded from continuing to attack after being stuck with a knife. I am not attacking or flaming anybody here, just stating my opinion and my justification for it. I welcome supported disagreement and discussion, but I will not get into a flaming match.

 

[Doberman_Dave]

Thanks bigcustom, for the pointer to the chronology of mountain lion attacks on http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks.html I found it very interesting.

My two cents worth on shooting cats and bears:
1) The FBI went to a lot of trouble to figure out that they needed the 10 mm auto round after a disastrous incident involving their people and a couple of bad guys with carbines. The subsequent finding that the .40 S&W could do the same job dismayed almost everyone. Shooting cats and bears isn't a match for shooting people, but the results did show how hard it is to separate anecdotal evidence from the real thing.
2) It's been a long time since I read the FBI study but they basicly concluded they needed a .40 (10 mm) round with good penetration D for bigcustom: they also found that the .357 would do the job). I think it would be safe to say that mountain lions and average to small black bears would require at least the same dose and grizzly's considerably more.

 

[MSgt]

The only time I ever had a problem hiking/camping was with my first wife - the danger was two legged as three 'men' took too much of a liking to her double Ds. Things got very intense and we both had no doubt that my pulling my old Browning Hi Power 9mm was the only thing that saved her from rape and me from ???? - I'll take my chances with four legged predators any day!

 

[billgow]

Keep in mind, however, that ft lbs energy isn't the be all end all.

You’re absolutely right; I used this data purely as an illustration. There are other factors to consider as well but the point I think everybody can see is pistols are really wimpy compared to any of the “high power” hunting rifles in use today.

We (unfortunately) live in a culture where we develop ideas about guns from garbage we see in movies and TV. While Clint Eastwood may be able to “blow a man’s head clean off” at 50 yards with a 44 magnum in a gun fight, no one else can.

I will take slight exception to your "as would a pistol be useless" argument. I have personally killed four black bears ranging from 150lbs to 400lbs at ranges from 20-40 yards with a 44 mag model 29 only one took a finishing shot, and none of them went more than ten yards after I shot them. I have been with hound hunters numerous times and seen more than ten cougars and 8-10 bears dispatched with a model 686 .357 at ranges of less than 20 yards with only a few taking more than one shot, and none of them doing any damage to dogs or human after they were shot.

You’re describing a hunting situation here, not a self-defense scenario. I think there’s a huge difference between taking a cat in a tree or a bear from a tree stand and dealing with a four-legged predator that’s already made dinner plans and is way ahead of you in the planning process.

I have done some handgun hunting myself. I’ve killed two black bears from tree stands over bait (in Idaho), three deer and one cow elk and more wild pigs than I can remember, 18 with a S&W29 and one with a 1911 in one year alone when California used to allow one-a-day. I have no idea how many coyotes I’ve taken with an assortment of pistols, one even with a Uberti 1860 Army cap and ball. My general field pistol is a 4” S&W M19 police trade-in that goes with me anytime I’m in the bush. I’m not bragging, I’m just trying to let you know I’ve done a little of this too. I’ve killed a lot more animals with an arrow than with a pistol so I guess that also puts a pretty big wrinkle in my ballistics.

In addition to occasionally hunting with a pistol, I shoot them competitively (IDPA and IPSC). For a little over a year I put away my 1911 and shot with my M19 because I thought it would help me familiarize myself with it for backcountry use if needed in a tight situation. I’ve since gone back to the 1911.

Last February, I was hunting javelina with my M19. I know the area pretty well and a couple of us score in the same place every year. I was just sneaking around an outcropping when I spotted one under 30 yards from me. I instantly snatched for my revolver and gave it a good pull….. then another good pull…. and another…..

The holster I use for my 1911 doesn’t have a thumb break but the one that carries my M19 does. I finally realized what was going on and took that little guy with a shot just over 70 yards. I was prepared, confident, under no pressure and well practiced. Had it been something big enough to take me on at that distance, I probably wouldn’t be sitting here typing this now. But that’s hunting, not combat.

A pistol is a miserable thing but for self-defense, it’s better than nothing at all and you can keep them handy and out of sight easily.

I am not attacking or flaming anybody here, just stating my opinion and my justification for it. I welcome supported disagreement and discussion, but I will not get into a flaming match.

I don’t see anything in your reply that could be construed as an attack or flaming. I appreciate your input as I’m sure everyone else does. I think why we do this is to learn from each other. We all have different experiences and by sharing them, some of our lives just might just be enhanced a bit.

Please don’t take anything I say here as an attack either.

BTW – I always have a cougar tag in my wallet. They’re targets of opportunity here in Arizona. I figure one day one will expose himself from my predator calling and I’ll know for sure whether or not a 223 works on them. I have had a couple come to see what all the noise was but still haven’t gotten off a shot at one.