Mountain Lions

[bigbcustom]

Billgow,

I appreciate your considered and informed response, and I don't take any of it as flame. The only reason I posted that last line is that sometimes when someone posts in disagreement with a previous post, the original poster goes off the deep end instead of responding logically and without rancor as you did.

I still think that a pistol would/could be a major asset in the case of wild animal attack, but that fact that you have hunted, and have some experience with weapontry causes me to take your argument a little more seriously than someone making blanket statements without any facts/experience to back it up. I grew up out in the woods in northern Idaho, and have been shooting since I was seven, and hunting (officially) since I was twelve. I have done a little bit of structured tournament style shooting, but mostly offhand. I am an avid reloader, knive knut, gun nut, and martial art/combatives nut. As for what I was trying to get to with the foot pounds argument, I have shot many game animals with a 30-06, 45-70, .223, 12guage, 44 mag, and 357 mag. In nearly every case, the 30-06 perforated the animal (shot all the way through) and the animal died nearly instantly. The others sometimes perforated, sometimes stayed in the game. How many ft-lbs of energy do you think a 30-06 dumps when perforating an animal? I would wager not as much as a 44 dumps inside the animal. What kills an animal? Insta kills are usually accompolished through hydrostatic shock and temporary stretch cavity. They can happen even when the animal is hit in a non vital area. The other type of damage caused by a bullet passing through flesh that results in death (usually) is the permanent crush cavity. The lowly 44 with proper bullet selection makes a substancially larger permanent crush cavity than a 30-06 or even a .338 or .375. Care to guess what the permanent crush cavity from a 12 ga slug looks like? That would be why a 12 ga is the gun of choice for a lot of fishing guides in ak. I really like the new .500 s and w 4" revolver that thing can churn out the energy and permanent crush cavity. I have always thought that in the event I was able to draw a revolver or pistol to defend myself from an onrushing catamount or bear, that I would wait til I couldn't miss because the animal was nearly in contact with me. I would like to think I could pull that off, but hopefully I will never find out. Sorry for all the rambling thinking out loud here. I look forward to more discussion.

 

[billgow]

I appreciate your considered and informed response, and I don't take any of it as flame. The only reason I posted that last line is that sometimes when someone posts in disagreement with a previous post, the original poster goes off the deep end instead of responding logically and without rancor as you did.

I understand. I’m kinda thick skinned (maybe a little thick headed too). I appreciate your thoughts and you going the extra mile to let me, and anyone else reading this stuff, know that your intentions are only to share knowledge. Sometimes these things don’t come across the way they’re meant to because there is no face on the end of these ramblings to give you a clue of what the messenger is trying to get across.

I still think that a pistol would/could be a major asset in the case of wild animal attack

I’d be a certifiable idiot if I didn’t agree with that. I always carry one in the bush. That would make me a hypocrite idiot!

The question, as far as I see it is; can someone with modest training get off a shot? I doubt if a really good shot, carrying a 44 magnum, could do it. Cougars don’t exactly let their victims know they’re coming.

I grew up out in the woods in northern Idaho

I have friends in Pearce, that’s where I’ve done most of my hunting in Idaho. I was thinking of getting involved with a really neat outfit in Kamiah at one time but my investors left me hanging in the breeze. I really like that country!

As for what I was trying to get to with the foot pounds argument, I have shot many game animals with a 30-06, 45-70, .223, 12guage, 44 mag, and 357 mag. In nearly every case, the 30-06 perforated the animal (shot all the way through) and the animal died nearly instantly. The others sometimes perforated, sometimes stayed in the game. How many ft-lbs of energy do you think a 30-06 dumps when perforating an animal? I would wager not as much as a 44 dumps inside the animal.

Oh, brother! They’re going to toss both of us outa here if we go too far into this one.

I used to be a member of a group of handgun silhouette shooters in California who started to shoot air pistol silhouette in our back yards as a social event more than a competition. It was called Shade Tree Shooters Ballistic Debate and Brunch Club. I’m beginning to think we need a couple margaritas!

Your point is excellent and I’m familiar with exactly what you’re saying. When a bullet has fully penetrated an animal, the issue of foot-pounds of energy is no longer a part of the equation. I’ve also gone over the concept of a bullet staying with a target as opposed to passing through as it relates to incapacitating a human target. I’ve never seen an animal bowled over from a shot like a man would if hit with something like a 45ACP but I have no doubt it could happen (with the right gun). As to which has a greater effect on a game animal, I’d have to say the ’06 that passed all the way through would have a more devastating impact. Of all the hogs I killed with my 44, only a few had bullets still in them. I would say those I shot with a rifle always went down faster than those I shot with my 44. Because I’m an archer, I have always gotten close and waited for my broadside shot. That’s why I had the kind of luck I did on pigs. I hunted with lots of guys who didn’t wait for that shot or used hollow points and had hogs run off. I figure those bigger boars were some of the toughest test medium anywhere. Bullet shape is a big deal. At the time I was casting all my own and you could see pretty quickly what was working well and what was marginal. At the time, I didn’t have any of the really wide metplat bullets that are available today. My favorite was a Lyman Keith style of 250 grains. I had a heavier Saeco but the darn noses on them were too pointy, same with a RCBS silhouette mold that was very accurate but designed to fly, not kill. Of course metallurgy has a part to play in this as well. Very soft, almost pure lead might be OK in a muzzleloader but sucks in a high-pressure revolver. Linotype is almost as brittle as glass. My hunting mix was half wheel weights and half linotype with just enough plumbing solder (95% tin) to make it all flow well and fully fill out the molds. Of these, the Keith style would penetrate to the opposite side and stop against the hide (or anything else it hit first) about half the time. The other two both penetrated about 80% of the time. None that I recovered broke to pieces but did deform some. The effect on the internal organs was interesting. As you’re well aware, a rifle bullet can make the innards look like they’ve been through a blender. I didn’t really see that with the pistol bullets. On a couple occasions when one of the Keiths would go through both sides, the animal was found with very little blood inside at all and except for things being punctured almost clean enough to eat right there and then. None of the pigs I shot with a pistol went straight down but they were all recovered pretty close to where they were shot (except the one I shot with the 45ACP – not a pretty story).

I think there’s a lot to be said for having two holes for the animal to bleed out of. Like you, I’ve seen lots of critters go down with that proverbial lightning strike but they were all with rifles and they were all hit in the spine or neck vertebrae. I have a tendency to believe that hydraulic shock may be capable of short circuiting the brain and having the same effect, I just haven’t seen it (or didn’t recognize it when I did).

As for the other critters who have met up with one of my handgun bullets, believe it or not, the cow elk had the most violent reaction. She looked like she was hit with an ’06 and jumped pretty hard, made a half circle then stood there until she was about on a third of a tank and dropped over. I cheated on that one and used a Contender in 35 Remington with a 200 grain round nose rifle bullet. Actually, now that I think of it, one coyote was coming in so fast, when I hit him with a Contender in 30 carbine, he actually kept coming for a couple feet and was dead before he hit he ground. Otherwise, even they wandered off a little way before keeling over.

What kills an animal?

The ballistic question of the ages….

I’m sticking with the age-old answer of blood loss. It may appear very fast in some cases but I think that’s still the answer. The animal doesn’t have to drain out but the brain has to stop functioning. I think when there is enough blood loss, the brain dies from lack of fresh oxygen.

Insta kills are usually accompolished through hydrostatic shock and temporary stretch cavity. They can happen even when the animal is hit in a non vital area.

I don’t know about that. I guess the only way to know for sure would be to hook a critter up to an EKG machine and see if it flat lines upon report. As for being hit in a non vital area and going down instantly, I haven’t seen one of those, I don’t think.

The other type of damage caused by a bullet passing through flesh that results in death (usually) is the permanent crush cavity. The lowly 44 with proper bullet selection makes a substancially larger permanent crush cavity than a 30-06 or even a .338 or .375. Care to guess what the permanent crush cavity from a 12 ga slug looks like?

I’m not familiar with the term “crush cavity”. I think you’re referring to what I would call the wound channel. My experience has shown a high power rifle does more internal damage than a revolver. As for the 12 gauge slug, I know they are very effective but I have not personally used one on anything but steel targets.

That would be why a 12 ga is the gun of choice for a lot of fishing guides in ak.

It wouldn’t be my first choice. Do they use a combination of loads, like a slug followed by a shell full of 00 buck? I think I’d just go with something like the 458 Win Mag.

I really like the new .500 s and w 4" revolver that thing can churn out the energy and permanent crush cavity. I have always thought that in the event I was able to draw a revolver or pistol to defend myself from an onrushing catamount or bear, that I would wait til I couldn't miss because the animal was nearly in contact with me.

Brother, I hope you never have to test that theory! It’s probably the right way to do it but you aren’t going to get much sleep working on that plan at bedtime.

Sorry for all the rambling thinking out loud here. I look forward to more discussion.

Are you kidding? I love this. When I get done with this, I have to sit down to dinner with my wife and daughters who will probably spend the evening talking about boyfriends, TV shows, pets, etc.. This is an oasis of intelligent discourse, amigo!

 

[Rainmaker870]

I still think that a pistol would/could be a major asset in the case of wild animal attack

My 38+ years of hunting and shooting experience agrees with you. We all know a handgun isn't as effective as a rifle, but how many of us in the lower 48 will carry a rifle on our day hikes? Not me, as a general rule, and neither will the majority of us. The handgun comes into its own in the wilderness for the same reasons it does in the city - you will have it with you.

As for what I was trying to get to with the foot pounds argument, I have shot many game animals with a 30-06, 45-70, .223, 12guage, 44 mag, and 357 mag. In nearly every case, the 30-06 perforated the animal (shot all the way through) and the animal died nearly instantly. The others sometimes perforated, sometimes stayed in the game. How many ft-lbs of energy do you think a 30-06 dumps when perforating an animal?

A lot, but it obviously still has some to spare.

What kills an animal? Insta kills are usually accompolished through hydrostatic shock and temporary stretch cavity. They can happen even when the animal is hit in a non vital area.

My dad once killed two wild turkeys with one shot from a .243. He deliberately held to one side and shot at the wing of a roosting turkey; the hydrostatic shock killed that bird, and the bird immediately behind also died instantly from the hydrostatic shock from the same bullet hitting the exact same spot. Other than than, and the occasional vaporized ground hog, I'm unaware of any documented instances of hydrostatic shock from a non-vital wound instantly killing a game animal... let alone an attacking carnivore. Two legged or four legged, I believe placement is everything. Granted, you have to be even more precise with a less-capable cartridge.

The other type of damage caused by a bullet passing through flesh that results in death (usually) is the permanent crush cavity. The lowly 44 with proper bullet selection makes a substancially larger permanent crush cavity than a 30-06 or even a .338 or .375.

Not on anything I've ever shot. An expanding rifle bullet makes an ENORMOUS crush cavity *if it hits enough flesh and bone to open up.* Included in my definition of crush cavity are secondary projectiles from splintered bone. My .350 mag punched a nearly fist-sized hole through a huge Colorado muley from front to back. .44's just won't do that. I carry hot-loaded, hard-cast bullets in my .44 for that reason: they give the penetration to smash both shoulder bones, or shoot end-to-end, that an expanding pistol bullet can't deliver.

I have this same discussion with my brother-in-law every time we get together. He's an O'Connor-ite, I'm an Elmer Keith fan. Funny thing is, both of us usually get our animals with one shot. Did I already mention that placement is everything?

I have always thought that in the event I was able to draw a revolver or pistol to defend myself from an onrushing catamount or bear, that I would wait til I couldn't miss because the animal was nearly in contact with me. I would like to think I could pull that off, but hopefully I will never find out.

That's always been my thinking as well. I think it's entirely possible, if you SEE an attacking animal, to shoot when it's farther out. With black bears, at least, that's realistic. With cougars, on the other hand, you might very well find yourself using that handgun from the bottom of the pile at contact range.... if you even have time to get a shot off. Under those circumstances, I submit that the handgun is *more* likely to be useful than a long gun still slung around your shoulder.

 

[Doberman_Dave]

Bear spray I say, bear spray!

 

[bigbcustom]

I have to get some sleep now so will make this one short (for me anyway).

Example of hydrostatic shock kill: A friend shot a coyote with a .17 rem. at about thirty yards in the side (rib cage) 4000 plus fps. coyote dropped like a sack of sh@#. We got curious and disected the animal. We found the same thing that we had read in a gun mag at some point (the whole reason the friend bought the .17) the bullet went to pieces and nothing penetrated more than about two inches, but every little blood vessel that we could see had literally exploded. We tried to get into the brain but messed up the soft tissue while cracking the skull (too many beers during autopsy). The article that we had read said than upon disection of his coyote the author found blown blood vessels in the brain. I am guessing that we had the same occurance.

Crush cavity argument: crush cavity defined as permanent destruction of tissue. The statement I made was referenced from something I had read about experiments in ballistics jell. Thinking about it, some game I have shot with an 06 where it hit a bone or two did have what I would refer to as a "crush cavity" that was darn near big enough to stick your arm in....hmmm....can I take both sides of this one?? please???

Bullet preferences in 44: I have a Lee (no guffaws please) mold that spits out the prettiest 300 grain gas check style flat point bullet you have ever seen. Big whammy!!!

What kills an animal?: quick=violent destruction of major organ (lungs, brain, heart) reliable=blood loss all the way. I am not an archery guy, but I have gone along with friends when they shot deer (nothing else yet) interesting as hell when a grazing deer gets hit with an arrow, jumps a little bit, looks around, lays/falls down and doesn't get up (only saw that one time, and it confused the hell out of me it was like the deer didn't even know what was going on...it was hard as hell for me to sit there for all that time waiting.

shot placement:simple statement says it all. If you can't reliable do it, you shouldn't be hunting. In the event of life or death confrontation...place as many shots as fast as possible wherever you can until said critter stops moving. ever seen the effects of a "bang stick" on a shark? If you manage to get off a round with the barrel in contact with the beast, not only will the bullet do some damage, but all those hot gases making the bullet go have to go somewhere as well...can we say "cougarloon (cougar balloon)" lol okay obviously I am getting too tired to talk or type so I am going to sign off and try to get some sleep.

Bear spray: I like the Idea, I have decided to get some (for over a year now), I haven't made the purchase yet, but I plan on doing it...the least it should do is confuse the animal long enough for me to unload my pistol into it then run up and stab it with my fixed blade knife in one hand and trusty swiss army knife in the other. lol (for the humor impaired, the former statement was meant as a joke) night guys.

 

[Return of the J.D.]

It stands to reason--corroborated by some anecdotal evidence from others I know who've encountered mountain lions in the wild--that sometimes you see them in time to react, and sometimes you don't. Sure, they're professionally stealthy, and by definition it's the ones you don't see that are the most dangerous. But we all have heard and read stories of people who've seen them in time and been able to react.

Situational awareness is, as in all things, critical. I'll admit--with considerable embarrassment--to a time when the importance of this was pointed out to me. I was walking through a museum of taxidermified game animals, and stopped to admire a trophy Coues' whitetail that was at the center of the display. As I was doing so, many seconds after I'd arrived at that exhibit, my uncle, with a little smile, wordlessly pointed to a spot about ten feet behind the mounted whitetail. There, crouched and ready to pounce, was a similarly-taxidermified cougar--which, though in plain sight, I had not seen. Ever since, I've been working harder at staying aware of my surroundings--and I'm working hard at teaching the rest of my family that, too. "Hey, kids--hear that bird? That's a whitewing dove." Keeping one's eyes and ears about one, enough to have at least the first idea about what's out there, and where to look, does have its payoff. I'd been especially impressed with some of Jim Corbett's accounts of how he used the calls and cries of various jungle birds, monkeys, etc. to track unseen tigers and leopards through the forests in India. Can you count on seeing the mountain lion before it attacks you in the Rocky Mountains? Probably not--but without any magic to it, your odds probably go up materially if you know what to look for, know where to look, keep "checking six" with prudent frequency, and keep your eyes and ears open, etc.

 

[Dougm]

fyi, 12ga. 2 3/4 in. slugs do have the same muzzle energy as a 30-06 (2800 fp)

 

[bigcountry73]

I live in New York. Whenever I head to the Adirondacks I carry a Ruger .38 and a Leatherman Wave. I figure either can get me out of the majority of situations

 

[Dougm]

After having given the subject considerable thought, I have decided that (for myself at least) a quarterstaff (6' long x 1.25" diameter clear, straight grain oak) in combination (where legal) with a knife (with a blade of at least 6"
in length) or tomahawk(as backup) would be "best" for defense against a possible lion attack (where I live there are too many houses and too much "fast food" (trail runners and mountain bikers) to chance shooting, although if we start getting boar around here (10 miles straight line from where a woman was killed and eaten by a lion), I'm liable to carry a spear instead.

 

[warrior24]

Does the bang sound usually scare away bares or cats?

 

[Codger_64]

No. Not a hungry black bear anyway. I had time to fire three times while a big black chuffed, swaggered, snapped and approached. She moved faster toward me with each bang. I performed a stratigic retreat, leaving the coon I was skinning to the bear. Had the bear persued me as I ran across the surface of the river, I was prepared to use my three last shots on the bear's snout/mouth. Luckily for both of us, She was happy to eat the coon, I was happy to be alive and across the river watching. By the way, I did get wet recrossing to pack up my camp, but not when fleeing from the bear.

Codger

 

[dawg]

I'm a ADC/tracker team member.We do not close cougar season in this area.The local school has cougar drills-we shot three on the playground this last year-and people whenever and wherever, shoot them out of hand with the state's approval. Cats are obligatory predators. They never stop searching for food and will kill for fun. I've seen a cat take down a full grown bull elk in one move. A cougar can jump 20' in one move. Your .40/.357 et al will amuse him to no end.Even if you did see one prior to his attack, you're never getting the good shot.If it goes for you, it's from behind, it's at incredible speed and you're history. A cougar's fangs are spaced so as to have perfect alignment with a deer's (or your) neck.While it's true we've got them with .22's (unusual case), and they are-as mentioned-thin skinned, they're built like a 6'5" 170+ pound bodybuilder.If you think you're safe because you're packing a sidearm....stay home.We're not trying to anger anyone but my team was reading this thread and frankly, we were pretty amused.BTW, it's incredibly easy to get a concealed weapons permit in Orygun-not to mention auto knives are legal carry w/o a permit-and most folks hereabouts drive daily with their rifle racks full so we speak from a different perspective.We also have to respond to kill scenes and see a lot of "the afterwards" so we think of cougars very much differently than someone who hikes etc.If we set up on a cat area with a electronic caller, we'll use either a Remington PSS .223. or a .270 depending. If moving around in an area of rocks or brush, generally a mini 14 .223 or a Marlin Guide Gun 45-70 depending. There was an incident a couple of years back where a bowhunter had dropped an elk about 7am having left the main group. He was initiating the process of gutting when he was knocked down from behind. He whipped around as he fell,slashing the cat deeply across the belly which then ran off and died in the bush. He was lucky. He only got away with this because he already had a knife in his hand and was naturally turning as he fell. Had he tried to fight with ANY kind of knife as a primary weapon, he would have died. Your chances against a killing machine like a cougar are nil.

 

[Rainmaker870]

I'm a ADC/tracker team member..... A cougar can jump 20' in one move. Your .40/.357 et al will amuse him to no end.Even if you did see one prior to his attack, you're never getting the good shot.If it goes for you, it's from behind, it's at incredible speed and you're history. ....they are-as mentioned-thin skinned, they're built like a 6'5" 170+ pound bodybuilder.If you think you're safe because you're packing a sidearm....stay home.We're not trying to anger anyone but my team was reading this thread and frankly, we were pretty amused.Your chances against a killing machine like a cougar are nil.

What's an ADC tracker team?

While I'm willing to accept your statement of experience at face value, I'm pretty amused too - I'm always amused when the "voice of experience" implies that everyone else's opinions and thoughts are second-class.

Are you claiming that a .357-class cartridge won't quickly kill a grown cougar? Or are you claiming that if an undetected cougar jumps on you from behind it's probably all over, no matter *what's* in your holster? I can agree with the latter, if that's what you meant to say.

If, on the other hand, you meant to say everyone else posting to this thread isn't qualified to have an opinion on the subject then I don't agree. As for staying home.... well then, that would leave all the fun stuff to your ADC/tracker team , wouldn't it?

 

[PC356]

So basically, these animals are just like Predator from the movie with Arnie. :jerkit:

 

[bigbcustom]

Dawg,

Rainmaker pretty much mirrors my own sentiments (only he did it in a much nicer way than the post I started and then deleted). Go and read the national database of cougar attack accounts, and compare that to your previous statement. As for a cougar pulling down a mature bull elk in one move....maybe an old and infirm one....or one desperate cat. I have spent a good portion of 30 years in the woods, and have never seen or heard of anything like that.....that doesn't mean I am saying it didn't happen. This thread was full of intelligent and good natured discussion, and then you jumped in and said we're all dip@#$ts based on your unsubstantiated "professional" opinion. I have several friends that have been hunting cats with and without hounds for 40+ years apiece (they are in their 60's and one case 70's) that have forgotten more than most people will ever know about cats....their opinions on things are a little different.

 

[dawg]

Wonderful...just wrote a half hour reply and got sent back to the sender....OK, real quick...ADC is Animal Damage Control.We use horses and or quads as well as dogs under license.Sorry to dispute you there BigCustom but my partner and I watched a 2-3 year old tom take down a full grown bull elk in the Tioga two years ago. We noticed the stalk across the canyon while glassing a burn. It was very fast,very impressive.At least it impressed the heck outa us.The only time I can recall having been more impressed was while heeding the call of nature in the squat position in Alaska, a brown bear ambled out of the trees about 50 yards to my right. While it actually helped the process I was going through at the time, it certainly impressed me to no end watching him snag and toss a big salmon out of the river. VERY impressive...Obviously, a .357 et al will do the job nicely. However, try doing a fast draw and shooting a basketball bouncing along the ground towards you at 35 mph after you've run up a flight of stairs. UH huh...not likely. This is our point. Should your sidearm be holstered until the initiation of an attack, your chances are frankly,nil. Attacks on humans are very rare. Often the result of old or hungry cats, they also often involve young cats too.Survivor accounts rarely state the cat was seen prior to the attack as cougars generally hit from behind.As regards your 30 years in the woods. Obviously, I can neither verify nor dispute that however your woods may be different from mine.I have worked in Alaska and listened to many accounts involving the same type of animals that we have here yet I have no personal experience with those scenarios.I have a lot of personal experience with black bears for example. My neighbor down the road shot one trying to break down his corral to get to his horse last month. I know this occurs but aside from after the fact situations, I've never witnessed it. I think what triggered us was that while we rarely view these threads, and I need to put this carefully,and while the vast majority of input is well meant and thought out, we get tired of the guy reading Soldier of Fortune in his cubicle and talking about his .300 magnum or his Texas Bowie's poweress in a life or death situation.We also, and most folks hereabouts do,deal daily with a misinformed public that hates hunters and specifically guys like us that have to hunt down a furry creature from the Wonderful World of Disney. Trust me, it ain't fun driving down a highway in a truck that says Wildlife Trapping Unit in this day and age. Uh Uh.....So..before this server sends me packin' to the relog, sorry to have offended anyone, we do this with a lot of experience and backgound.You mention old timers. Well, when we need advice and input, we always go to the elders as you're right about their knowing more than we ever will.I'm pushing hard on fifty and even with a miltary background involving tracking and years in the bush, I learn something every single day from one of these old country boys. No disputing that one. We speak from personal experience and believe in what we say and do. Our background goes from the coastal range of the Northwest all the way back to the center on Smoke Bomb hill.

 

[Rainmaker870]

Thanks for clarifying, Dawg, and welcome to the forums.

 

[bigbcustom]

Dawg,

Your second post appears much more thought out, and clarifies your thought processes from your previous post. Like I said in my previous post, I am not saying the elk thing didn't happen, but I would guess that the victim was old, or sick. I apologize for my tone in my previous post as I was a little miffed by the tone in your first one. I am a life long hunter, and have respect for those that have to do the job that you do. My time in the woods was mostly spent in Northern Idaho and Colorado. I have a friend up in Idaho who is a woods boss for a large lumber company that shot a cougar (with a .357 revolver) which was tangled up with his dog. The dog had been a little nervous, and intercepted the cat in midair (as related by him...obviously I wasn't there) as it was leaping to attack him. The dog was hospitalized at the Vet's for several weeks and almost didn't make it. (he never fully recovered, but lived a couple more years) My friend walks 10-15 miles through the woods nearly every day, and sees some interesting things. As long as we're telling bear stories, most frightening position I have ever been in with bears is pushing a grounded salmon boat back out into the water up the Nak Nek river outside Bristol Bay with six or seven bears coming to investigate what was going on....nearly had to clean my shorts after that one.

 

[dawg]

Thanks guys for reading my second note,and again our apologies for the misunderstanding. As it's Father's day, I'm going to go make a 20' leap and take down a sixer of Corona in a single move.BTW, my biggest deer taken in almost 4o years was near Wallace Idaho. Real pretty country. I understand it's become something of a hot spot of real estate however, too bad. Around here most folks work in the woods (logging) and my brother works out of Sitka and Kodiak and Dutch Harbor. Lotsa big bear /clean yer shorts stories.

 

[Pilot1]

Here in Colorado we've had an increase in Mountain Lion incidents. Even near populated areas such as Boulder, although what's a few hippies more or less.

When I hike I do carry at the bare minimum a fixed blade survival knife, currently a Spec Plus Air Force and a Ruger GP100 .357. Every few minutes I do a 360 just to see what's behind me. Most cats and bears stay away, but if a cat stalks you, the attack will come from behind.