Mtn Lion Attack in Orange County

Mtn Lions will attack from above and front as well as well as behind. The key: Know their patterns, know their preferred areas of habitat. Learn to check for tracks, and learn to spot fresh v. old tracks. Learn and practice this before you go out, obviously. Mountain lions use stealth then explosive speed short distance to get you. They go for the weakest, slowest member of the herd. Travel with people who are in worse shape than you. ;-) (kidding)

If you see one prior to an attack (unlikely), open your jacket, make yourself as large as possible, and yell at it ferociously. Show it you are the dominant predator. Make sure it has a way out -- either around you or away from you. It may likely turn around and look for an easier target. Stay aware though, because it may just look for a better ambush point as well. If it is crouched and ready for a pounce, and growling with ears back, it is targeting you. However, that may be a defensive reaction as well as an offensive action.

Predators will go for the easiest prey, and so, just like when being mugged, make yourself a hard target, and make the animal give up for easier prey. Make it harder for it to eat you than not eat you.

If attacked: Learn to roll (like a martial arts roll), learn to throw over your shoulder (a la ju jutsu), and learn to deploy a knife in reverse grip and stab backwards. Stabbing backwards while executing a front roll (if you can't throw) is not easy, but use the momentum of the attack to propel you forward. Hold on to the knife for dear life, and stab repeatedly. (If a knife is all you can carry). A large blade would be best here for depth and breadth of penetration. Your weight rolling hard on top of the lion as you go over will help penetration of the blade, and will possibly knock the wind out of the lion and/or cause the knife to move around in its vitals. Disembowel it before it disembowels you. Just rolling fast and hard often will disengage the lion from your neck, if you do it at the moment it hits. Learn to react this way. I know a person who did this very successfully, and the lion ran off in panic. He was still hurt, but alive, and finished his trip in the wilderness without going home early. The idea with a lion is to fight like hell. Scream with all your might as you do it (this will PROBABLY happen anyway involuntarily. ;-)) Just fight like a demon and don't give up. Eye jabs, whatever, go for the soft targets. Knee it in the balls. Bring your knees up into your torso to help prevent disemboweling.

Throwing a weapon at the animal is only as good as throwing it in some other direction (It's why police yell "Drop your weapon!") -- you never want to throw away your weapon.

Dogs can provide a buffer, and you can help it fend off an attack if you want. It's better than no dog, even if the lion wins, you have time for escape. Dogs won't necessarily prevent an attack -- the cat will compare you to the dog to see which is the slower, weaker, member of your two-creature herd. In the case of a bear, a dog can very likley lead the angry bear right back to your camp or you, though, so be aware of this. A lion will probably not pursue, unless it feels it can finish the dog and have it for dinner. Bears usually attack for defense/threat reasons rather than preying on humans for food.

Using pepper spray is good if you see the attack coming, but can incapacitate you as much or more than the animal if grappling with it. Then, you are a more tasty meal (cajun hiker dish).

Riding a bike is a whole different ballgame, but if you can, get the bike between you and the animal and use the bike as a weapon. It'll provide SOME cover at least.

None of this is absolute (every instnace has it's own dynamics, etc., so describing these teachniques are just examples), but perhaps may increase your probability of not being attacked. Wearing non-earth-tone colors is good too -- earth tone colors tend to look like the fur of a delicious prey animal. However, if the animal is becoming acclimated to humans as prey, this may not matter anymore. Also, cats learn like any other animal, so if humans have been easy prey, they will get more bold. If they have been shot at many times or hunted, they know what a man with a rifle looks like, and may stay clear.

Obviously, if you can carry a pistol or rifle, that would be best, but a rifle is pretty hard to point and use when you are grappling with a lion.

Just some thoughts and suggestions.

Best,
 
Big Cat Attacks on People

Measures to Minimize Risks to People

While there are no guaranteed ways to avoid attacks by big cats on humans, the following suggestions may be helpful:

Where big cats are liable to threaten people, circumspect behavior is called for. People in groups are generally safe, but children especially excite the interest of big cats and are more vulnerable (65% of 58 known victims of puma attacks were less than 16 years old: Beier 1993). Care should be taken where cover may conceal a resting cat. A warning shout or other noise to announce an approach is likely to cause it to move away. For example, many people living in wild environments are purposefully noisy when walking from place to place in order to scare off potentially dangerous animals. Talking quietly to or yelling at a threatening cat may scare it off. Thomas (1990) describes the way Ju/hoan Bushmen spoke to lions on a kill which they intended to rob, speaking "firmly but respectfully". Beier (1993: 409) describes how a 50-year-old female hiker, attacked and knocked down by a puma, set up her backpack as a shield, faced the puma, and (in her words) "began talking to her the way you would if you were trying to soothe a dog or cat." She kept this up for 30 minutes until she heard other hikers nearby and yelled for help; their noisy approach (with one hiker blowing a whistle) scared the cat away.

When threatened by a big cat, it is dangerous to turn and run -- in at least two cases, running appeared to stimulate a puma to select the victim out of a larger group. However, running up a tree might help, although in one puma attack, the two cats climbed after the girl, who kicked them and hit them with a stick to make them leave (Beier 1993).

Seidensticker and Lumpkin (1992) stress the importance of maintaining eye contact with a threatening cat, as well as taking care not to bend or squat. In the Sundarbans, the use of face masks, worn on the back of the head, has proved a deterrent to tigers, who usually attack from behind. Large eye spots on the back of a cap may also be effective.

Throwing objects at an attacking cat may help and, once attacked, 20 of 29 puma victims successfully fought off the cats with bare hands, a stick, a knife, a jacket, or a rock. In several cases, even children unassisted by adults were able to repel pumas by fighting back. In several other cases, children carried off by pumas obeyed their parents' instructions to "play dead" and were limp. The pumas, although carrying the children, did not attempt to kill them, and people were able to scare them off (Beier 1993).

Attacks should be investigated immediately to establish whether they were accidental (perhaps arising from the cat being surprised), or a case of deliberate hunting. If an attack is clearly determined to be deliberate, the wisest course of action is to eliminate the problem animal as soon as possible. If the attack appears to be the result of a surprise confrontation, no action need be taken, unless the body has been eaten.

Big cat attacks are perhaps most likely to occur in settled areas bordering protected populations of cats. A healthy population will include a dispersing class of both sub-adult animals seeking to establish a territory, and older former residents which have lost theirs. Both of these types of cats are prime candidates for becoming problem animals: the sub-adults have immature hunting skills, and the hunting efficiency of older animals is declining. If risks to people (or livestock) are unacceptably high in such situations, there may be no solution but a programme of elimination of these "surplus" cats, which is generally what occurs, in an illegal, informal and indiscriminate fashion. In Nepal, for example, tigers and leopards which stray out of the Royal Chitwan National Park are often poisoned by livestock owners (Seidensticker et al. 1991, C. McDougal pers. comm)

maximus otter
 
As someone who finds mountain bikes, snowmobilers, joggers etc. in the wilderness as attractive as a naked 300 lb hairy man at a wedding, I'd say stay out of the wilderness. These types of activites are an obnoxious assalt on Mother Nature. A mountain biker or jogger absorbed in thier "sport" is oblivious to nature, they are too busy getting high on their endorphins. They don't belong...but...hey...maybe they do belong, as cat prey. The wilderness should be man with what god gave him, two feet and the tools he can carry. Bike in city, suburbs or farmland, not in the wilderness.
 
I'll have to get more info on the area where the trail is that I'm riding. It is a county park area. I'm probably one of many mtn bikers that go through the park, but it's new territory to me. The trails are actually fire trails and powerline access trails. I'll have to look further into the history of attacks in this area.

There are several suggestions that seem reasonable - take a dog or two, go with a group, don't run, back of the head fake "eyes", making noise as you go, using whatever you have as a weapon.

Maximus Otter had an interesting piece of info: "Big cat attacks are perhaps most likely to occur in settled areas bordering protected populations of cats."

I don't know if they're protected (probably, this is CA after all) but for sure I live in a "settled area" bordered by hills with deer running around everywhere. I did see deer 30 yards in front of me on one ride, and they are often hit by cars on the main road between San Jose and Santa Cruz.

As far as whether I should be up there at all... I don't have enough time to reply to that one....
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
As someone who finds mountain bikes, snowmobilers, joggers etc. in the wilderness as attractive as a naked 300 lb hairy man at a wedding, I'd say stay out of the wilderness. These types of activites are an obnoxious assalt on Mother Nature. A mountain biker or jogger absorbed in thier "sport" is oblivious to nature, they are too busy getting high on their endorphins. They don't belong...but...hey...maybe they do belong, as cat prey. The wilderness should be man with what god gave him, two feet and the tools he can carry. Bike in city, suburbs or farmland, not in the wilderness.
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:rolleyes:

Such an idea is touching, but not gonna happen. Since mtn bikers and joggers aren't going away, we need to deal with what should be done under the usual circumstances.

Speaking of which, I should get on my bike more this year. If I get into the mtns, I'll definitely be carrying either a Safe Keeper push dagger (NOT 420 cryo, luckily) or maybe the Bushman.

Ash
 
Mark Reynolds, the man who was killed was from Foothill Ranch this is a suburban neighborhood that borders the Whiting Ranch Wilderness park. To call this a wilderness area is a politacl designation that allows no development. Mr. Reynolds was only a few miles from his home. We are talking about an area only a few miles square that is wedged between Foothill Ranch, Portola Hills, Lake Forest, Rancho santa Margarita and the Cleveland National Forest.

Which ever way you feel is the appropriate way to experience your neighborhood,Mark Reynolds was riding his bike through the area around his neighborhood. He apparently stopped to fix his chain and was attacked and killed.
 
Originally posted by Manuel Talavera


Maximus Otter had an interesting piece of info: "Big cat attacks are perhaps most likely to occur in settled areas bordering protected populations of cats."
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I have good news! Yes, there are lions in the mountains, and yes, they are protected!
 
In places where tigers attack people, they have started wearing masks on the back of the head. No one wearing a mask has been attacked.
The most common attack is from behind, so they don't attack if they think you're watching. Maybe a face on the back of the helmet.
As far as weapons, I'd vote for a 6' quarterstaff. I hike with one & it gives the advantage of reach & force multiplication because of the length.
A 6' staff can easily crush a skull & with some basic skill can keep an animal at bay,(if you get a chance to use it). That + a last resort blade are about all that's legal & effective.

http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/staffs.htm


These are martial arts rated. Made from hickory & laminated from 2 pieces across the grain from each other. Light but strong. I finished mine in cherry stain.
 
Why are they riding a bike so far in the forest where there are big animals with sharp things?
 
On a bike, along with a knife, I'd carry pepper spray. I recommend a 4 oz. cannister of Fox Labs pepper spray, with the clip holster. You can get it at selfdefenseproducts.com (check out the site). It is the most powerful/effective pepper spray available. If the cat doesn't incapacitate you within the first few seconds of an attack, you will probably be able to employ it, and the cat WILL break off the attack. Shoots in either a stream or focused fog and can go out up to 20 feet. Animals have very sensitive/wet noses and sense of smell, and this spray f@#ks them up bad. When walking my dog I had a hard charging 120+ lb. Rot screaming in pain 10 feet before he got to me...I mean the dog was WORTHLESS.
All the important ladies in my life have this spray for defense against predators in the human jungle.
 
Originally posted by Manuel Talavera
A big dog is an excellent idea - and both of us would be getting a workout!! Hmm - how big of a dog do you need to handle a 110 lb. mtn lion?
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About 220 pounds.
 
reports say that being in groups can help discourage an attack, although the girl was with a friend, on bikes (which would make them appear bigger) & she still got attacked. A dog might help discourage an attack simply by smelling the cat early, and barking its head off. Pepper spray is great if you see the cat coming, but pretty worthless one it's on top of you, since it will be hard to control the spray and hit the cat rather than yourself in a high-stress, close-in situation. Similar problems arise with a pistol. I'm thinking a good stabber in reverse grip, plunged into the cat (which is probably on your back) repeatedly while you crouch to sheild your soft spots, is the best way to go. Stab stab, yell yell, pray pray.
 
I'll suggest a handgun. At least a .357. Make sure you know how to use it. Bring a good fixed blade in case you run out of bullets. Why be under prepared?
 
Originally posted by andster
I'll suggest a handgun. At least a .357. Make sure you know how to use it. Bring a good fixed blade in case you run out of bullets. Why be under prepared?
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Because fighting unarmed with a mountain lion sounds like a lot more fun than an extended stay in jail.

-- Rob
 
Originally posted by andster
I'll suggest a handgun. At least a .357. Make sure you know how to use it. Bring a good fixed blade in case you run out of bullets. Why be under prepared?
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How many bicyclists in SoKal do you think will be packing heat?
 
The best defense is to open up those area to hunters and clear out the cat population. It is pretty stupid to play in an area populated with dangerous starving wildlife; we might as well discuss the best respirators to use when biking into a forest fire. If you come across an aggressive big cat while carrying nothing more then your pocket knife, you have already screwed up. Whether you make it out of there, will depend more on the condition of the cat, then on your knife brand.

Best preparation = stay away, until the problem is taken care of.

n2s
 
Thank you not2sharp!! See as I understand it Calf. banned lion hunting,this was due mainly to the large number of "urban" voters.At the time I read a piece from a rural voter who was upset that those who did not have to live with the cats got the hunting banned,and that if they loved them so much maybe they could have them come live in their areas.

His wish seems to be moving nearer day by day.

Also keep in mind your weapon may very well be used to save ANOTHER person.This story has a group of men coming on scene and picking up rocks to throw.They would have had time to draw and use asp's fixed blades etc.My favorite story of a woman killing one with a serrated kitchen knife,was able to do so because others were able to hold it down.

I have never lived in a state where I could not carry a handgun,but I have traveled to them.I brought my handgun!Listen no one will know unless my life is at risk.If I lived around these cats my gun would be in a fanny pack.Roll the dice.

Look at the gang members who carry,bunch of dopes,constant police contact etc. how many of them go to jail on gun charges alone? You got half a brain,never get stopped by the cops,I'll take them odds.
 
Cats most often attack from behind.

In India, a most effective defense against tigers has proven to be the wearing of a Holloween mask on the back of one's head. No kidding.
 
These attacks will only increase until the ban on hunting mountain lions is lifted. When we go camping in the sierras, I never worry about the bears, even though I regularly encounter them and occasionally have to chase one off. I only worry about the lions. The kids are under strict instructions to stay close and not go anywhere alone. And I often have a .45 on me. Even in places where guns are not allowed; I keep them discrete. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. Even the risk of losing the gun and a little jail time pales in comparison to losing a family member.

The lion population explosion has created an unusual dispute between two camps of the "animal folks". Since the ban on lion hunting was instituted, the population of the endangered mountain bighorns in the Sierras has gone from somewhere near 400 to around 200, mostly attributed to the direct effects of lion predation and the indirect effects of the bighorns staying too high too long to avoid the lions and being weakened from poor nutrition and exposure. And they can't say that this range effect is from human presence; one of the three herds is on Mt. Williamson, which has one half of the mountain completely off limits to humans for half of the year, and the other half of the mountain off limits for the other half of the year. This herd is suffering just like the other two. So we have a plentiful species (lion) being protected at the expense of a truly endangered species, the sierra bighorns.
 
I've been attacked by a cougar here in "cat country." My dog -- a 90-pound lab/shepard/wolf -- held it at bay until I could fire a shot in the air. Didn't even think about using a knife. The thing is that a lion will win the fight, but it doesn't like to fight anything mean and aggressive. Lions kill deer from behind, but I know of several people who have had aggressive encounters with lions and they always see it coming. Look big and tough and don't run.
 
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