Multiple quench

[Any Cal.]

I understand, Purple.

I have the impression that if everyone made a knife by a pattern #, so all were identical in profile, and various alloys were less available, then HT would be vastly more important.

If you wanted a #3 Skinner, and it was only available in 1080, then you would want the maker who could do the best heat treat.

If today you wanted a skinning knife, would you invariably go to the maker who had the best 1080 HT? Or would you perhaps simply go with one who offered it in D2? Would the well executed 1080 hold an edge longer than the D2?

If you just payed $350 for a knife, would it get enough use for you to say unequivocally whether the heat treat was good or great?

I think that maybe a truly excellent HT would be most important for knives at a price point that allowed them to be users, and ones specifically sold for certain qualities.

While many will want to do the best job they can, if a maker required an 1100 dollar HT oven to create knives that looked the same as they always did, but performed 5% better, how many would do it?

I hope no one takes this as a flame. I am interested, and following the thread, just simply playing the Devil's advocate where the discussion of continual disregard for common sense is concerned.

 

[scottickes]

My questions are only so you understand what I am trying to say. Even if a HT is nearly perfect, if there is no public awareness of the difference, it might as well not even exist. As Kevin mentioned, PR takes precedence. Just because someone expects more from a custom, does not mean that they will get it. Just because they expect more does not mean that they will ever know if they received it.

what difference it would make. Not the difference between used motor oil or Parks, but the difference between a common routine and one with the right control equipment and data.

To me, the difference is "that as the maker, I know"! That is why I'm reading as much as I can from "the ones" that are looked up to as "understanding" what happens to the steel and why it happens.

Mr. Cashen,
I very much appreciate your insights and willingness to share the knowledge that you've worked so hard to attain. Thank you sir.

Ickie

 

[Jared Stenoien]

If today you wanted a skinning knife, would you invariably go to the maker who had the best 1080 HT? Or would you perhaps simply go with one who offered it in D2? Would the well executed 1080 hold an edge longer than the D2?

If the maker who is using D2 was simply using his forge to get "good enough" I'd most definitely take the 1080. D2 needs plenty of soak time, and I don't think there's too many people who can hold something at temp for 20-30 minutes in a forge without blowing the grain size up. If that happened then you'd definitely see more than a little difference between the two.

 

[LRB]

I do believe in doing the best HT one can do, however, I would bet on the D-2 winning out, even if the HT is less than ideal. I would bet big on 01, in the same scenario, if edge holding is the ONLY concern.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

...While many will want to do the best job they can, if a maker required an 1100 dollar HT oven to create knives that looked the same as they always did, but performed 5% better, how many would do it?...

An important advantage is also being overlooked here that would appeal to even the most frugal of business minded makers. It is nice to nail that extra 5% but it is just plain more efficient, cost effective and business savvy to nail it consistently every time. If one needs to double check every single blade at every step because you are not sure if you eyeballed that last heat quite right, huge amounts of your time are consumed by that. When one considers the effect of predictability and consistent results on efficiency, that HT oven will be the cheapest $1,100 you ever spent.

I enjoy such order and predictability but I am with Mr. Purple in that the person that the extra 5% should matter to the most is me the maker. If I knew there were unwanted products in my martensite, it would distract me to madness until I was in total control of the process again. I have to believe that knowing the maker has that kind of obsession with quality and detail, is worth every bit as much as all the super-knife hype to the consumer. And knowing the maker is made of such stuff is worth
well more than the extra 5% he may get out of his steel. :thumbup:

 

[scottickes]

An important advantage is also being overlooked here that would appeal to even the most frugal of business minded makers. It is nice to nail that extra 5% but it is just plain more efficient, cost effective and business savvy to nail it consistently every time. If one needs to double check every single blade at every step because you are not sure if you eyeballed that last heat quite right, huge amounts of your time are consumed by that. When one considers the effect of predictability and consistent results on efficiency, that HT oven will be the cheapest $1,100 you ever spent.

I enjoy such order and predictability but I am with Mr. Purple in that the person that the extra 5% should matter to the most is me the maker. If I knew there were unwanted products in my martensite, it would distract me to madness until I was in total control of the process again. I have to believe that knowing the maker has that kind of obsession with quality and detail, is worth every bit as much as all the super-knife hype to the consumer. And knowing the maker is made of such stuff is worth
well more than the extra 5% he may get out of his steel. :thumbup:

I couldn't agree more. If a person is looking for a knifemaker and knows how persistent a particular knifemaker is in achieving that extra 5% in the heat treat, he'll also be able to trust that he is just as diligent with fit and finish. If the fact that a knifemaker puts that extra 5% into the heat treat is important to a potential client, whether he ever actually can tell the difference or not, then other things that knifemaker does will become more important to him. He'll know that the fit up of the guard is first rate, even inside the handle material where he can't see it. He'll know that the soldered joint is strong and will hold up. He'll know that the knifemaker uses sound construction techniques, because he'll know that the knifemaker cares about his clients, his craft and his legacy. He'll know that the knifemaker that tries to get that extra 5% out of the heat treat will try to get the extra little bit out of the rest of the knife that the client "CAN" see and benefit from.

Ickie

 

[Chris Meyer]

Any Cal, I realize that you are just asking a question, so if I sound too fired up please understand that I am not indicting you...

If Maker A is using equipment that gives him an adequate heat treat, and Maker B is using equipment and knowledge that let him come close to dead on for the HT, who will ever know?

I, the maker would know.

My questions are only so you understand what I am trying to say. Even if a HT is nearly perfect, if there is no public awareness of the difference, it might as well not even exist. As Kevin mentioned, PR takes precedence. Just because someone expects more from a custom, does not mean that they will get it. Just because they expect more does not mean that they will ever know if they received it.

I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of custom knives NEVER get used. (I have heard that some makers of art knives don't even bother to heat treat their steel.) So your question really comes down to personal ethics; either your a shlub and don't have an respect for your customers or any pride in your work, or you are a craftsman who takes pride in a job well done (even if you are the only one who ever knows it). If you are the shlub (again, not meaning you Any Cal) why even bother making knives? There are an endless number of easier ways to con people out of their hard earned money.

I am not trying to take anything away from the importance of the discussion, but am trying to see, from a business standpoint, as if I was the business owner, what difference it would make.

In business, your reputation is everything. If it ever comes out that your product or work is not up to par and, worse that you knew it all along, your business is doomed. If you aren't willing to expend the time, energy, and sometimes money that it takes to make your knives the best you can make them, perhaps you (again not You) shouldn't even bother. For God's sake, at least don't sell anything that could embarrass you later.

Tracey Mickley just had a nice article in Woodcraft Magazine. He mentions how his first knives were so bad that he eventually dug a pit in his yard, salted the knives so they would be destroyed, and buried the offending pieces. That's they kind of pride in your own work that I admire.

*I apologize if the tone of this post comes off as a little acerbic, but I read many, many things written on a half a dozen forums on the net and only decide to bother posting in around 10% of them, but eventually I get a belly full of stuff that even a whole bottle of Tums can’t handle and I tend to unload in one post. Forgive me if my pressure relieving gives anybody else some heartburn in the process.

No need to apologize Kevin, that's why we love you. We see the same B.S. that you do, but you have the knowledge and facts to prove the crap is crap. Keep up the good work! :thumbup:

 

[Any Cal.]

Hello all. I just have to say EXCELLENT ANSWERS. I like the level of commitment that each of you who have posted are showing. To my mind, that is the sort of mentality that I would want behind a knife I bought.

Please understand that I am not advocating mere adequacy, but trying to get a better idea of what is being achieved, or trying to be. Thank you also for not taking my earlier comments personally, as that was not my aim.

Thank you Chris as well, for not calling me a schlub.

Kevin, your points on consistency not only equaling better blades but more efficiency are quite good.

Have a good afternoon all, and I hope you continue putting the same effort into your knives.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

No need to apologize Kevin, that's why we love you. We see the same B.S. that you do, but you have the knowledge and facts to prove the crap is crap. Keep up the good work! :thumbup:

Other than how cute and adorable I am in person , there is no reason to love me as long as folks accept the facts. Its not about me, one can hate me if they choose as long as they deal with the facts. Indeed love can get in the way of facts over crap. If your adoring grandma caringly spoon fed you crap, for her sake you would make num num sounds for the whole world to hear, until grannies the world over were feeding their little snookums crap on a regular basis! When the fact is that grandma's spoon is full of crap!

If I gave you the same spoon, you would smell it before it reached your lips and tell me it is nothing but crap! Thus forcing me and everybody present to go learn how to prepare some decent food!

Edited to add- As for the apology, the way I see it we are handing out some very much needed but rather bitter medicine to some folks. One thing I did learn from my Grannies spoon is how adding a little sugar makes medicine a whole lot more palatable