Munk Bowie edge failure

My first post.
From what I can see in the photographs it appears that the blade is too hard. Possibly was not drawn back to correct temperature after hardening. Is this a laminated blade? I don't think it could be a cold shut, as someone suggested, as this can only occur when you are forge welding layers of metal into one piece and you have a spot where the weld fails.

This is not going to be a simple, quick easy fix. If this was my knife, I would remove the handle, reheat blade to a cherry red color and pack in vermiculite, wood ashes, or some type of medium to cool the blade as slowly as possible, may take more than one try. You need to get the entire blade back to a dead soft condition. When a file will readly cut any where on the blade, you can reprofile and regrind the blade. When the edge is ground, don't grind to a sharp edge. Leave the edge about the thickness of a dime. Sand blade to desired finish ,up to about 220 grit. Heat blade to nonmagnetic, about 1450 deg. F., quench in 150 deg. F., heat treat oil, this can be homemade (burnt motor oil & new oil mixture , etc.)

If this blade is 5160 (spring steel), after the above treatment it will be so hard that a NEW file will barely scratch it. This is too hard and will not make a good usable blade. This is the critical point in your heat treat. You must reheat the blade to the point where you are starting to take hardness out of the blade. The closer you heat it to 1450 deg., the softer it will be. My blades are heated to 365 deg. F., for one hour. Try the edge with a new file, if it will still not barely "grab"the cutting edge, raise your temperature another 25 deg. and try again. Continue doing this until you feel the file just beginning to cut the steel.

Now you can carefully, grind the edge to a sharp condition and test your blade on a good hard piece of wood to see how it holds up. If it is going to fail, you need to know now, before you put any more time into finishing the knife. Like I said, this is not going to be a simple 10 minute job to save this blade.

A simple regrind may or may not work. How much of the cutting edge is too hard? Was blade edge quenched or full length quenched? Is the tip too hard? I would not worry about answers to these questions and just start over again.

This is a very nice blade, beautiful fullers. I would try to save it.

I am one of the instructors at the ABS School. Passed Master Smith test in 1992. Taught numerous courses on Basic Forging, Damascus, and Handles and Guards. The above quickie explanation is exactly the way the ABS teaches beginning students heat treating. In my classes, we spend at least 2 days,trying to learn the basics of properly heat treating a blade. Not a simple task.

This is just my opinion, based on what I can see in the photos. This and a couple of bucks will get you a good hot cup of coffee at your nearest Starbucks.


flournoy, welcome to Bladeforums (as a poster at least). Great post.

I wish I had your gumption and ability with regard to steel. I can do almost anything with wood, but metal is a different matter.

If you haven't already, do check out the Makers forums. You'll fit right in.
 
Question:How would one forge a big hunka 1/2" steel like the Munk Chunk from a leaf spring? Would folding be involved? Forging two springs together? That crack looks like two separate pieces of metal separated. Eric.

I'd just assumed they'd gradually pounded a ridge, moved the metal, massed it on one side. You see what I mean? How could you do that and leave a crack? You've made the metal flow- even when they bend the khuk into shape. munk

well, the spine might be 1/2, but is all of it? metal pushed around... some parts thicker (like on the upswells of the spine and the fullers) but there are valleys, and of the course, the edge is ever so thin.

as for cracks... if the metal was smooth and clear and without flaw (virgin goodness) you heat and push and flow... ideally, yay, plastic like goodness and it's just heat. even then, the metal can develop issues (poor heat treat, fractures/etc - but that's another issue).

however, consider the source of the khukri metal - used truck springs - there is no guarantee that the metal is pristine. it could be cracked from stresses of the road, have inclusions, rust, all kinds of things wrong with it, internal to the metal - all kinds of stress and nasty. internal and not visible. that's scrap life. i'm sure they discard all kinds of obviously flawed material, but well, you can't catch it all.

so, given that, and the relatively low temperature forging that goes on, the cracks and "stuff" will remain, and possibly even get worse! the cannot be fixed without higher temps, flux, and much work - that's folding and welding and ... it ain't gunna happen. at best, they'll push the cracks around.

i wonder how many blades break while forging over there? i wonder too if some of the problems of late, aren't QA of the work, but of the source materials? perhaps they got a batch of really inferior truck springs.

me? i'd love if they could start folding steel and doing various kinds of blades with that. wouldn't that rock?

oh, and virgin plastic... you've seen the phrase used probably - for high quality items - they often use swirly recycled plastics for other things, and sometimes the different materials fail to bond well, and then things have cracks, splits, and just fall apart. the center does not hold :)

bladite
 
Hi guys, I will defer to Joe if he wants to chime in, but when you forge a blade, it is subject to a lot of stress put into it in the process. Thats why bladesmiths normalize the steel they have forged prior to heat treat, it helps take the stresses out and "relax" the metal. Once normalized, you run less risk of cracks and other stress risers when quenching. Bladite is also correct, it is possible that the raw material (old springs) was already full of stress from flexing a million times on an old vehicle. Its just another mystery of working steel. Thats also the reason many bladesmiths refuse to work with steel from unknown sources, the amount of work put into a blade is makes it not worth the risk of unknown steel.
 
Considering the source and work conditions, it's amazing that things usually go so well.

When they don't, that's when Yangdu and her dedication to happy customers steps in.
 
Thanks for the warm welcome and all the kind words. I appreciate it.

Bladite, Jay and Nasty hit the nail on the head. I would never attempt to repair a cracked blade by trying to forge weld the crack back together. The cost of material versus the possibility of a failed blade is not worth it. I realize that blade material is more difficult and costly, to obtain in Nepal than it is here, but these kami's have a reputation and job they are trying to maintain. I think they do an amazing job. If I had to work under these same conditions, I would have found another way to spend my spare time about 30 years ago.

I had never heard of HI until about 3 months ago, and had never even seen a "real" kukhri. Been in the knife business over 30 years and I can not remember ever buying a knife from another knife maker. I have now bought 8 kukhris from HI and I am anxiously checking forum daily trying to buy more.
Kuks are a lot like potato chips; I can't imagine any one being satisfied with just one.

Regards'
Joe Flournoy
 
Bladite, Jay and Nasty hit the nail on the head. I would never attempt to repair a cracked blade by trying to forge weld the crack back together. The cost of material versus the possibility of a failed blade is not worth it. Regards'
Joe Flournoy

Sounds right to me Joe. ;)


Spiral
 
... Been in the knife business over 30 years and I can not remember ever buying a knife from another knife maker. I have now bought 8 kukhris from HI and I am anxiously checking forum daily trying to buy more.
Kuks are a lot like potato chips; I can't imagine any one being satisfied with just one.


Sounds like HIKV to me :D.

Welcome Joe! I loved your post on heat treating. Please hang around... as someone said earlier... we can learn a lot from you :).

Alan
(a frustrated wannabe knive maker)
 
Wow, Joe:) What a tribute to HI:D Welcome to the Cantina! We are all very excited to learn from you. Thank you for stopping by.

Jake
 
I received the replacement Munk Bowie in today. It's hard to believe, but this one is even more beautiful then the original. It has a horn handle with some white in it as well as it has finger groves and brass pins rather then the steel ones.

Yangdu was also kind enough to include a baby chitlangi that is also quite beautiful.

Thanks Yangdu for the chitlangi and the outstanding service. :thumbup:



--No photos at this time, it's raining out. I hope get a review of the bowie up soon.
 
give it a third-hand creation, other world ; Yangdu will always insure first rate.

I think they call those kind of people Presidential candidates....







munk
 
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