My Carbon Steel Rant

[Pomsbz]

There is nothing untraditional about stainless blades.
They've been used in knives since the 1920's.
They've been properly heat treated to out perform carbon since the 50's.

I fully agree with you Frank, my comment about cognitive dissonance was referring to the idea that as carbon steel is still being used for most traditional knives there must be a good reason other than marketing to nostalgia and manufacturer cost saving.

 

[Phil in Alabama]

I fully agree with you Frank, my comment about cognitive dissonance was referring to the idea that as carbon steel is still being used for most traditional knives there must be a good reason other than marketing to nostalgia and manufacturer cost saving.

I generally prefer stainless or at least rust resistant like D2. There are certain patterns that I like and will buy regardless of if they're plain carbon steel. I like what Case does with their CV knives, which have stainless springs. Blades will usually patinate and not red rust with some care, and the stainless springs preclude rust all in the joints, springs and between liners and springs.

I've not seen any statistics comparing manufacturing numbers but I am skeptical about the idea that carbon steel is being used in most traditional knives, especially from the 1970's and newer.

I would think that if stainless knives had been available years past in the heyday of traditional pocket knife useage and manufacturing that many if not most knives sold would have been stainless. Nostalgia IS the drive for making plain carbon steel blades, they are the niche product, not the stainless. I do understand why many people still want carbon instead of stainless, seeing as to how I like blued steel wooden stocked firearms, instead of stainless and synthetic models. I am grateful that there are still traditional products being made, whether stainless or corrodable steel is used. But I would bet that the numbers of "modern" style knives made and sold vastly outnumber the tradit o nals.

 

[Pomsbz]

I generally prefer stainless or at least rust resistant like D2. There are certain patterns that I like and will buy regardless of if they're plain carbon steel. I like what Case does with their CV knives, which have stainless springs. Blades will usually patinate and not red rust with some care, and the stainless springs preclude rust all in the joints, springs and between liners and springs.

I've not seen any statistics comparing manufacturing numbers but I am skeptical about the idea that carbon steel is being used in most traditional knives, especially from the 1970's and newer.

I would think that if stainless knives had been available years past in the heyday of traditional pocket knife useage and manufacturing that many if not most knives sold would have been stainless. Nostalgia IS the drive for making plain carbon steel blades, they are the niche product, not the stainless. I do understand why many people still want carbon instead of stainless, seeing as to how I like blued steel wooden stocked firearms, instead of stainless and synthetic models. I am grateful that there are still traditional products being made, whether stainless or corrodable steel is used. But I would bet that the numbers of "modern" style knives made and sold vastly outnumber the tradit o nals.

My apologies, I should have said 'most knives referrenced here'. Often it's hard to remember just how large a market Case has of buyers who have never even heard of the forum.

 

[supratentorial]

My apologies, I should have said 'most knives referrenced here'. Often it's hard to remember just how large a market Case has of buyers who have never even heard of the forum.

In other words: GEC Even if we exclude Case and Victorinox, there are more traditional knives than GEC and Rough Rider I'm playfully teasing, of course.

I've not seen any statistics comparing manufacturing numbers but I am skeptical about the idea that carbon steel is being used in most traditional knives, especially from the 1970's and newer.

BRL claims that in the 1930s, 90% table cutlery was stainless but 90% pocket knives were carbon. Particulars will depend on the company and time. In contrast to that generalization, Victorinox made a large switch to stainless in the 1920s. Case made a few stainless knives in the 20s, more in 50s, even more in the 70s, and mostly stainless in the 80s and later. In the last 10 or 15 years, more carbon knives have trickled into Case catalogs but the majority are stainless. I think most traditional knives are stainless today... even if you exclude Victorinox and Case, I think most are stainless. I think fancier stainless steels aren't common mostly because of manufacturing costs.

I would think that if stainless knives had been available years past in the heyday of traditional pocket knife useage and manufacturing that many if not most knives sold would have been stainless.

It was available. If the quality now available was available back then then you're probably right. Manufacturing, costs, and demand would also factor into it. Manufacturing has changed from hand forging to drop forging to stock removal. And those are just some very broad changes.

Nostalgia IS the drive for making plain carbon steel blades, they are the niche product, not the stainless. I do understand why many people still want carbon instead of stainless, seeing as to how I like blued steel wooden stocked firearms, instead of stainless and synthetic models.

I like how 1095 easily takes a razor edge and holds it. I don't care at all about "patina" and don't understand why some choose 1095 because of it. But I think it's a very small number of folks posting on the forum compared to all consumers of modern made traditional style pocket knives.

I like 1095, BG42, VG10, 154cm, ats34, etc etc. Variety is good. If given a choice on every knife that I want to buy, I'd probably choose a mix with mostly stainless and fewer with 1095. Choices are pretty limited though among American made traditional knives. I can't usually get the patterns that I want with the stainless steels that I want... and the traditional knives with "exotic" steels tend to be a lot more expensive than those with 1095.

 

[screened porch]

Patina-nurturing turns your knife into a sort of pet.

 

[Buzzbait]

I did the D2 test over the weekend. The weather was wickedly hot and humid again. I was away for 3 days, and left two Queens on the nightstand of my bedroom, with the windows open. The mirror polished D2 showed no signs of corrosion whatsoever. Woohoo!!!!

 

[Railsplitter]

I did the D2 test over the weekend. The weather was wickedly hot and humid again. I was away for 3 days, and left two Queens on the nightstand of my bedroom, with the windows open. The mirror polished D2 showed no signs of corrosion whatsoever. Woohoo!!!!

Glad to hear it! This is my first summer carrying my D2 Railsplitter which also has a mirror finish on the blades. I haven't had any problems yet but things at the workplace where I usually sweat the most have been mostly computer work and I haven't worked up a good sweat yet.

Still good to know as some hard labor is just around the corner and it probably won't cool off anytime soon. Thanks for the update!

 

[Buzzbait]

Glad to hear it! This is my first summer carrying my D2 Railsplitter which also has a mirror finish on the blades.

I'm glad also, but not too surprised. The test was mostly a formality. I've been carrying a Dozier D2 fixed blade for over ten years now, and have only once experienced a tiny bit of rust; and that happened on a rather soggy canoe trip, and was perfectly understandable.

 

[Ironbut]

I did the D2 test over the weekend. The weather was wickedly hot and humid again. I was away for 3 days, and left two Queens on the nightstand of my bedroom, with the windows open. The mirror polished D2 showed no signs of corrosion whatsoever. Woohoo!!!!

Our Summers are hot & sticky here too. I carried my Chris Reeve all weekend & my new Queen Barlow was sitting on top of the gun safe. This morning, I went to put it in my pocket & there was rust starting on the bolster, where my thumb print was. The blades were fine, though.

 

[Buzzbait]

Our Summers are hot & sticky here too. I carried my Chris Reeve all weekend & my new Queen Barlow was sitting on top of the gun safe. This morning, I went to put it in my pocket & there was rust starting on the bolster, where my thumb print was. The blades were fine, though.

Now there's a plot twist. Any idea what the bolster is made out of?

 

[Ironbut]

Now there's a plot twist. Any idea what the bolster is made out of?

I dunno, but I assume the bolsters aren't D2, because there were lots of fingerprints on both the blades & there was no rust on them.

 

[Dr-Mabuse]

Our Summers are hot & sticky here too. I carried my Chris Reeve all weekend & my new Queen Barlow was sitting on top of the gun safe. This morning, I went to put it in my pocket & there was rust starting on the bolster, where my thumb print was. The blades were fine, though.

I'm very interested in this as well. How certain are you that it was rust? Those bolsters on their D2 knives are typically nickel, which will tarnish a bit if given a chance but won't corrode. If it is tarnish, merely carrying it in your pocket is usually enough to wipe the tarnish away.

 

[Dr-Mabuse]

I dunno, but I assume the bolsters aren't D2, because there were lots of fingerprints on both the blades & there was no rust on them.

Ok ignore my earlier response. Yeah the majority of trad bolsters are what's called nickel silver, that's just harmless tarnish buddy. Some knives have steel bolsters and/or liners but definitely not yours. You're knife is good to go. If the tarnish bothers you, just carry it or flitz it but it won't hurt anything.

 

[Ironbut]

Ok ignore my earlier response. Yeah the majority of trad bolsters are what's called nickel silver, that's just harmless tarnish buddy. Some knives have steel bolsters and/or liners but definitely not yours. You're knife is good to go. If the tarnish bothers you, just carry it or flitz it but it won't hurt anything.

I buy all my knives for users, so it doesn't bother me. Most of it wiped off easily with a little CLP on a paper towel, but if I look closely there are a couple small areas still visible & I can feel them when running a finger nail over them. Again, not a big deal to me. I've already oiled up all my rust-prone knives & stored them in the gun safe, with the de-humidifier.

 

[Phil in Alabama]

What year or approximate estimate did some of the knife makers start selling stainless knives? I know that Queen was one of the earlier firms to sell such, but I really haven't done any research on other companies and timelines.

I've got several Queen D2 knives and haven't had rust on any of them; have had some small stains appear on the blades which usually rubs off with further use. Have got one older knife, a Pal scout model that was my grandfathers, which has steel liners and bolsters. World war 2 era knives often show up made of without any brass or nickel silver, which I would think was because of diverting such metals to necessary wartime uses.

From what I've read, earlier stainless knives developed a reputation of poor edge holding, most likely from lack of optimum heat treatment of the steel, which improved over time as research into such developed better processes for working with stainless steels. I have read that the Case knives, which had a very good reputation for edge holding, were only hardened to upper 40s Rockwell C., and have always wondered how well their carbon steel chrome vanadium blades compared to some others such as Queens stainless and how hard Queen and others got their blades. A direct comparison would be interesting to read.

Stainless or carbon steel, both would need some maintenance, but neither are really difficult to work with.

 

[supratentorial]

What year or approximate estimate did some of the knife makers start selling stainless knives? I know that Queen was one of the earlier firms to sell such, but I really haven't done any research on other companies and timelines.

Frank is correct that it was circa 1920. A lot of companies sold stainless. Victorinox is a good example of a company that embraced and favored stainless early on in the 20s. ...There was a Stainless Cutlery brand. It was part of Camillus... 20s-1940 IIRC. Queen developed their "Queen Steel" (stainless) in 1945. They favored stainless more than Case and many other...up until the 80s.

From what I've read, earlier stainless knives developed a reputation of poor edge holding, most likely from lack of optimum heat treatment of the steel, which improved over time as research into such developed better processes for working with stainless steels.

BRL has a nice article posted: http://www.knife-expert.com/stlessh.txt

I have read that the Case knives, which had a very good reputation for edge holding, were only hardened to upper 40s Rockwell C., and have always wondered how well their carbon steel chrome vanadium blades compared to some others such as Queens stainless and how hard Queen and others got their blades. A direct comparison would be interesting to read.

I don't know the Rockwell hardness but I think 40s is one of those internet myths. Someone did recently post the heat treat protocol from Schrade--very respectable numbers. If you do a Rockwell harness test, you should use a knife that hasn't been resurfaced. A lot of knives have been resurfaced and are falsely described as mint. If the blade was allowed to get hot during resurfacing, it could affect the results. And if the tang is annealed, then you can't get an accurate measurement of the blades hardness from testing the tang.

 

[Eric J]

I use Chapstick on all of my carbon blades and they seem to be free of rust. I live in California and my Mora can rust easily if I don't do this to it.

 

[PirateSeulb]

I know it has been said multiple times all across the interwebs but really for myself nothing beats simple plain food grade mineral oil it is inexpensive and effective I use it to lube pivots and coat blades stainless and carbon both its basically impossible to damage anything with it.

 

[leghog]

I'm sorry if I offended you, by having an opinion that is different from your own. But that remark was totally uncalled for, especially seeing as you are a relative newcomer here, in comparison to myself. You would be better served by showing far more patience here, along with a modicum of empathy for others in general.

Only offense is you quoting me out of context. You only quoted what I bolded below when those last 5 words of my post must be taken in the context of my 90+ word post.

The context:

"Wipe down the ones you don't carry and store them with desiccant packs (you can get then at dollar stores).

The ones in rotation, wipe down once a day with an oiled rag you keep in a zip lock. It really is minimal maintenance taking only a few seconds a day.

If that's truly too much of a hassle, you might consider off loading the vast majority of your 70 carbon steel knives and your other knives as well too (as they too require a modicum of maintenance) and consider collecting something else."

 

[CajunTX]

...Which makes me wonder if anyone having these troubles has tried a couple treatments of FrogLube or Seal1 (or anything else) on their 1095 and noted the difference?

I am using FrogLube on my 1095 and CV steel with good results. It doesn't rub off on my clothes and stays on the blades good. I also use Corrosion X, and really like it.