My fire pistons being copied?

[Macchina]

As many of you have probably seen, I have been making and selling fire pistons on this forum (and other forums) for a few years now. I just came across a thread in which Exodus125 is selling titanium fire pistons that look surprising similar to my fire pistons. I wouldn't be upset if he was selling the standard 3/8" bore wood or brass ones you see all over ebay, but it appears that he is selling a very dimensionally similar fire piston to the one I created in originally in 2007, and none-the-less he is selling them on the same forum as me. It took me many hours to come up with the proportions for an all metal fire piston with a 1/2" bore, and his appears very similar. I know I am not the only maker of fire pistons, but I feel his is a little too close to be a coincidence.

My first thread about fire pistons (07/2007)
A few pics of mine:

(I added the grip slots in later generations)

His first thread of fire pistons (06/2009)
And a couple of pics of his:

 

[Supmonkeyface]

Have you contacted him? They do look surprisingly similar, but if you haven't patented the design, all this is is very poor form. thumbs down to the copycat.

 

[Macchina]

I contacted him, and he claims to have used this website to come up with his dimensions. The problem is, the website gives the details to make a common fire piston where the piston is pushed on. What makes my fire pistons unique is that they are designed to be used upside-down. Most fire pistons have a handle or ball on the end of the piston to push on (exactly like the website he referenced), and mine have a rounded end on the cylinder to push on instead. This allows the piston to be made of a single piece of metal and they are designed to be used against a solid surface instead of in two hands. This is very different than wood designs because a wood piston will break if it is struck against a hard surface, while a metal piston will not break. He is claiming that he made a fire piston remarkably similar to mine using instructions that tell you how to make a standard fire piston that is not similar to mine. Once again, I am not trying to say that only I can make fire pistons and sell them here. My point is that his are remarkably similar to my idea of pushing on the cylinder, with no credit or mention of my design.



Here is a link to Google shopping with a search for "fire piston". Notice all of the designs are geared towards holding the cylinder in one hand and pushing on the piston with the other hand. Notice how most of them are wood and have 3/8" bores, typically with greased twine instead of a synthetic o-ring.

 

[Macchina]

Here was my original PM to him:

Hello,
I don't want to come off as confrontational, but I've noticed you've started selling fire pistons on this forum and CPF.com. Your fire pistons look surprisingly similar to the aluminum I've been selling on the forum for years. I know I do not have the idea patented, but it took me many prototypes to come up with the dimensional ratios for a proper working 1/2" piston. This includes the distance of the o-ring from the end. All of these dimensions look very similar in the pictures of your fire pistons. I know there is no way to prove that you copied my design, but I don't appreciate what appears to be a blatant knock-off. Your titanium pistons appear to be the same as my original, with the only change being in material and the lack of grip rings.

To which he replied:

Hi Michaelmcgo,

If you must know, I got the idea for these pistons after coming across this article:

http://www.onagocag.com/piston.html

If you scroll to the section titled "Traditional Firepiston" it shows a diagram and some dimensions for a fire piston:

"Here's a drawing for a traditional wooden firepiston. The cylinder is 4" to 6" long and 3/4" to 1" in diameter. Make the inside diameter around 1/2". Follow the drawing for making the piston. The walls of the bore must be perfectly straight and polished smooth."

I have made them many lengths and longer ones work better but that was the most practical size for carrying.

I certainly did not invent the fire piston, but I certainly did not rip the idea from you.

Your aluminum pistons appear to be the same as the one in the link I provided, with the only change being in material and the presence of grip rings. Thanks for the PM.

-Esteban

 

[Knife Outlet]

I don't know what a fire piston is but, if you want to avoid copycats, you need to patent the design and be prepared to defend it legally. Otherwise, that's the way the ball bounces. Sorry it happened to you.

 

[Macchina]

I don't know what a fire piston is but, if you want to avoid copycats, you need to patent the design and be prepared to defend it legally. Otherwise, that's the way the ball bounces. Sorry it happened to you.

It's one of those things that a lot of machinist make (like knives), so patents cannot really be taken out on the individual design (like custom knives). But like knives, I'd like to believe that a person can come up with a unique design, and people should recognize that. If I started selling modernized Nessmuks like Koster does, I'm sure I'd get a lot of flak for impeding on a knifemakers unique take on a classic design. People tend to not support blatant copies around here, and I feel like my design has been blatantly copied. My fire pistons were unique in design and function until Exodus125 started making the same design.

 

[Praxis]

Yes, it's sad and frustrating when someone copies a design you spent a lot of time perfecting, but like Knife Outlet said, your only option aside from publicly shaming the person is getting a patent on your UNIQUE design and defending that patent with lawyers. You have to decide how much this is worth to you and how far you want to take the matter. Good luck!

 

[batosai117]

It's one of those things that a lot of machinist make (like knives), so patents cannot really be taken out on the individual design (like custom knives). But like knives, I'd like to believe that a person can come up with a unique design, and people should recognize that. If I started selling modernized Nessmuks like Koster does, I'm sure I'd get a lot of flak for impeding on a knifemakers unique take on a classic design. People tend to not support blatant copies around here, and I feel like my design has been blatantly copied. My fire pistons were unique in design and function until Exodus125 started making the same design.

I feel for you, no matter what happens I'll still get my future pistons (and recommend to others) from you :thumbup:

I only recently had to sell my personal one (loss of day job, desperation) and I believe the new owner was very pleased. As for the question,"what is a fire piston," it is a system that is used to create a burning coal from char cloth, pieces of wood, twine, lint, etc...and it lasts forever (especially the one that Mike makes). You insert the skinny tube (with the piece of tinder at the tip) and jab it onto a rock or tree and when you pull the tube out, the tinder should be a smoking piece of coal.

 

[j williams]

What a crock. Nothing pisses me off worse when people steal other guys ideas and try to make a profit off someone elses designs.

Not much to do bout it, but posting it here is a good idea. I know you didnt invent the firepiston, but, youve been selling yours here for awhile, and his look too similar to me.

I see this from time to time on the forums....With leather sheaths, knives, etc...

Just cause it isnt copyrighted dont make it right. I know you are well within your rights to copy a uncopyrighted design, but its totally unethical. :barf::thumbdn: