My first batch of knives came back from heat treating sporting low RC numbers

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12345678910 said:
Are you sure that steel is properly ID'ed ?
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That's my first question as well. My next step would be to get on the phone with the steel supplier and/or HT provider. I refuse to deal with certain companies anymore for exactly those kinds of problems.

As it stands today I've never had an issue with NJSB, AKS or Peters' HT, so I'm sticking with them.

RangerBobTX said:
Can I just redo them in my oven? I would definitely just try one at a time since I'm new to this.
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Might as well. Just follow a basic protocol to anneal and re-HT them; you really have nothing to lose. Especially since you have an Rc tester you trust, it will be good practice if nothing else. If your kiln is calibrated well, you should certainly be able to get better results than that. If not... it ain't 440C.
 
I'm anxious to hear your outcome here! I have had blades treated by TKS (A2) and have not had any issues. I was about to send out some CPM 154 blanks to them to heat treat but after reading this I'll wait to see what happens. They do not list on their instruction form that they do CPM 154 but I called them and they said they could do it. I would use Peters but I dont have 20 blades at a time to send. Anyone have any other suggestions on who can treat a couple of CPM 154 blades?
 
crocogator106 said:
Anyone have any other suggestions on who can treat a couple of CPM 154 blades?
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I have had many blades done by Jeff Mutz at TruGrit. They can cryo and RC test blades. Jeff has a good turn around time as well.
 
AVigil said:
I have had many blades done by Jeff Mutz at TruGrit. They can cryo and RC test blades. Jeff has a good turn around time as well.
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Thanks!!! I didnt even realize they had a heat treating service. I think I'll give them a try.
 
Just as an aside, I always stamp or engrave the steel type and my initials on both sides of my blades before heat treat as I am sure many of you do. I figure that anything that could go wrong will go wrong. It doesn't hurt no matter who you use for heat treating.IMG_2094-1.jpgIMG_2094-1.jpg
 
LARRYZ10 said:
Just as an aside, I always stamp or engrave the steel type and my initials on both sides of my blades before heat treat as I am sure many of you do. I figure that anything that could go wrong will go wrong.
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Me too. I often send in blades of different steel types in the same box, and always try to grind a couple extra to fill out the order. Stamped markings don't wear off, even if an HT'ed blade hangs around for months before I get around to finishing building it :thumbup:

I'd like to add that if the OP goes ahead and re-HT's these blades, he should fully performance-test and destruction-test at least one of them even if the Rc numbers come out right... to watch for things like edge-holding, toughness, notably "blown up" grain size etc. That's a good idea now and then anyway, but especially if there's been some sort of problem.
 
I talked to the kid at Texas Knifemakers Supply that does their HT. He said he follows the instructions for all the different steels so he doesn't know how there could be a problem. He also said he only tests hardness on the blades if it is requested. I said I would send a blade back to them so they can verify the hardness and he said don't worry about it, he'll have them issue a refund. I told him that store credit is fine so they can just send a gift certificate. I will re-treat the blades myself. If he had sounded a little more confident or concerned about the problem I might have had them run the blades again but, I felt zero confidence in his abilities to troubleshoot the problem.

Bob
 
They only test if requested!? For f*ck sake, the job isn't done if hasn't been verified. Could you imagine if I made parts that were bad and claimed, I only measure stuff if requested?

I wouldn't send HRC 52 to a customer on a dare or as a joke. Thank goodness you were able to test them.

440C should receive at least partial cryo before any temper. They can be re-hardened.

Peter's HT does 90% of my heat treat these days. They're absolutely outstanding.
 
RangerBobTX said:
I talked to the kid at Texas Knifemakers Supply that does their HT. He said he follows the instructions for all the different steels so he doesn't know how there could be a problem. He also said he only tests hardness on the blades if it is requested. I said I would send a blade back to them so they can verify the hardness and he said don't worry about it, he'll have them issue a refund. I told him that store credit is fine so they can just send a gift certificate. I will re-treat the blades myself. If he had sounded a little more confident or concerned about the problem I might have had them run the blades again but, I felt zero confidence in his abilities to troubleshoot the problem.

Bob
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I was waiting to see how this came out-WOW! I will be taking my heat treating submissions elsewhere!
 
I test every blade I heat treat, and test between tempers. I had one failure on a hunter that didn't harden properly early last year, and I bought a tester because of that. It's simply not worth the risk to leave it to chance. The customer was quite good about it, and has bought more since. I made him a better knife for free to fix the mistake.

If you have the tester, it only takes seconds to get a reading.

To the OP:

If you don't have access to liquid nitrogen, you can use acetone/dry ice mix to do a subzero. With the kiln you can anneal the steel before re heat treating it too, if you feel it's needed. I'll let others more experienced in stainless help you with that. Every stainless blade I have done so far with the even heat has come out on the money when following the data sheets. :thumbup:
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
They only test if requested!? For f*ck sake, the job isn't done if hasn't been verified. Could you imagine if I made parts that were bad and claimed, I only measure stuff if requested?
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^ This.

RangerBobTX said:
I talked to the kid at Texas Knifemakers Supply that does their HT. He said he follows the instructions for all the different steels so he doesn't know how there could be a problem.
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That's all I need to hear, to decide (again) that I would never trust them with my blades. :thumbdn:

Peters' tests every blade I send them, and it actually comes out less expensive for me. Total no-brainer.
 
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Ouch!

You'd think they'd be weary of how unbelievably meticulous, detail oriented, and obsessive compulsive the knifemaking population is???


Reputation is jeopardized when personal accountability becomes an option....
 
I am sure someone from TKS will be calling you after they read this thread.

It really surprises me that they only test if requested. That would be equivalent to cooking a meal from a recipe and not tasting it before you served it to your customers.
 
Well Stacy, you nailed that one! I just got a call from Lance, the manager at TKS. He just got back from vacation and was told about the problem. Called me to discuss it and make things right. He said, if I would send the knives back to him, he will supervise the treating and make sure they come out right. He was certainly concerned about the low numbers. I am going to give him a chance to make it right and will be sending the knives back to TKS to be re-treated.

Bob
 
Bob,
That is what I expected to happen. Give him a fair shot. Things go wrong with anyone or any business, and all that is needed is to get it worked out. Good businessmen always make it right. From my dealing and others I know, Lance is a good chap. If the blades don't come up good this time, I would seriously suspect the steel....but I'm betting they will be spot on.

Lesson to learn for all of us - When there is a problem try and work it out with the person/supplier before taking it public on a forum. Today people throw their hands up in two days... sometimes before the owner can come back from vacation and resolve the problem. Equally, when a problem gets resolved satisfactorily, post a thread about the good service. Sadly, most threads and posts referring to suppliers are negative.
 
bladsmth said:
Bob,
That is what I expected to happen. Give him a fair shot. Things go wrong with anyone or any business, and all that is needed is to get it worked out. Good businessmen always make it right. From my dealing and others I know, Lance is a good chap. If the blades don't come up good this time, I would seriously suspect the steel....but I'm betting they will be spot on.

Lesson to learn for all of us - When there is a problem try and work it out with the person/supplier before taking it public on a forum. Today people throw their hands up in two days... sometimes before the owner can come back from vacation and resolve the problem. Equally, when a problem gets resolved satisfactorily, post a thread about the good service. Sadly, most threads and posts referring to suppliers are negative.
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Yea, that's good advice. It still does not resolve the question of why they don't test the blades after H/T. That just doesn't make any sense to me. But what the heck do I know.....?
 
It might just be a new employee who is being lazy, or making an excuse for skipping a test. It doesn't make sense for a professional heat treater.
 
If there is ever a problem with a company that I'm doing business with, I won't let the issue rest until I have talked to the manager/owner. The "buck stops" with them, so to speak. Like the manager of a local pharmacy I had a meeting with the other day concerning an ongoing problem with the pharmacist....who is no longer employed. And as we all know, bad business practices tend to get noticed more than the good ones...and rightly so. Wheat from chaff, sort of thing. I'm so glad to hear that TKS made this right, or is in the process of it anyway.
 
Stuart is right. "Never take No as an answer from someone who doesn't have the authority to say Yes."

When I have a problem with an agent or salesperson on the phone, I excuse myself and end the call. I then find the name of the owner if I don't already know it, and call back saying, "Stacy Apelt from XYZ here, can I speak to John D. Owner, please." The secretary will usually ask what it is in reference to, and I say, "A problem with an order." Normally I get the boss in seconds. All problems generally end at that point.

I would guess that the testing statement from the employee was not their normal process ... and I am pretty sure that after this thread testing will be De-rigueur (literally, not in the fashion sense).
 
[/RANTMODE]

So I read this yesterday, twice, and I got irritated at some of the responses to the OP. Consequently I became the lowly rat bastard who called TKS to let them know why their ears were burning. Lance took the call and the problem was acknowledged directly and confronted in a more useful way than what had started to happen here.

I have no dog in this one personally, but Jim Lemke's outfit has been serving custom and hand-made shops all over for many years. His company has successfully HT and tested literally thousands of blades for more than a few satisfied makers.

Bob I’m glad that you decided to give TKS a third shot and that you had the common decency to share it here. Class act. Good or bad, please follow up when you can.

Until the full story has been told, I would hope any interested folks would learn to hold public pronouncements against a businessman that has worked long and hard to build a solid reputation. Mistakes happen and I doubt this will be their last (if indeed it is actually on them here - still need more info yet), but fairness was out the door here in short order IMHO. That is not consistent with the personalities of most other makers I know/admire so much (especially outside their shops). I appreciate Stacy also sharing his mindset on this; he again shows the advantage of being wise over just being smart.

We should keep in mind the genuine consequences resulting from the easy/simple act of publically trashing a man's reputation until the basic facts are in hand. Businesses that support our madness at this level are few and far between and makers tend to have long memories. The Golden Rule is still relevant I want to believe.

[/RANTMODE OFF]
 
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