My first batch of knives came back from heat treating sporting low RC numbers

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If checking RC hardness check "upon request" policy is fabrication of one worker, than the problem is proximal to the person who made that claim...

However, if it's a legitimate response to a customers inquiry and stands as their standard operating procedure, than there is most definitely a problem that needs to be resolved by the company...

The real issue is that services that are "based on good faith" are setting themselves up for disaster when they don't adhere to tangible standards surrounding said service. How much does it cost in labor and consumables to have each batch of steel tested to verify hardness? It seems as if the practice of verifying hardness is the industry standard when it comes to blades, so why isn't it their standard? How many bladesmiths have a tester of their own? How many soft knives made it to market? Their error can reverberate bad juju across the board. Furthermore, there's also a chance the employee on the phone said something dumb.

One "oh crap" dissolves a thousand "atta' boys!, but it doesn't mean they can't rectify the issue or bring clarity to concerns. Granted this thread sounds like torches and pitchforks, they are just posts of an individual explaining an issue.... If the issue turns out for the better or worser is up to the other side. Whether they openly resolve the issue, do it in silence, or express that the employee was a bone head, etc.; they start shedding light on the issue...
 
I've said it before, but a really good guide to how to deal with conflict with one another, or from company to company can be formed in your own mind by spending a little time in The Good, Bad & Ugly forum.

I realize that not everyone has time to go around sampling every forum here, but that's one I'd dot every now and then just to get a feel for how customers and knife enthusiasts feel about common issues. May not seem directly related to whatever you're dealing with, but there are many lessons to be learned there. I've seen many instances of self policing and nudges toward accountability that go heeded, it's quite refreshing.

For the record, I'm not talking to Bob directly, but everyone who has an exchange with others here. Some knife makers (and sheath makers) choose to put their feedback and experiences there. I suggest you consider it if you really want to put everything on the table. Sure, there will always be some knuckle heads and shenanigans, but the level of maturity and experience overall is solid in my opinion.
 
Andy Lewis said:
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We should keep in mind the genuine consequences resulting from the easy/simple act of publically trashing a man's reputation until the basic facts are in hand. Businesses that support our madness at this level are few and far between and makers tend to have long memories. The Golden Rule is still relevant I want to believe.

[/RANTMODE OFF]
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That's very well put and I'm generally inclined to agree with the underlying sentiment. But...

A person puts a tremendous amount of effort into a knife and the knifemaker's reputation rides on the quality of the work. What single thing is more important than the quality of the heat treat?

Problems happen and people need to have reasonable expectations, but this isn't a batch of belts with a bad seam or a piece of wood with a big void in it, it's a batch of blades sent back at HRC 52. What if the maker didn't have the ability to QC the work himself? What are the odds that this one time the maker measured the work is the one time there was a problem? There is no excuse for shoddy heat treat and if that is the case this is not a matter of "well it's not a big deal, mistakes happen". If a supplier providing heat treat services to thousands of knifemakers does not have a process in place to prevent a problem of this magnitude from leaving their shop I think it is a problem and should be recognized as such.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
... it's a batch of blades sent back at HRC 52. What if the maker didn't have the ability to QC the work himself?...
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I sure hear you Nathan. No doubt a serious fail, but I would also think any maker who farms out their HT has literally no business putting out tools that are not individually edge tested. Maybe I'm being naive but if I buy a user that's delivered at HRC 52, I am not going to be chasing that maker's HT contractor.

On the other hand, a maker that can't ID a machete-soft edge on basic testing and finishing ... that's a different issue/thread.

What I intended to focus on earlier was the consequential fork in the path here on this public forum. Good reputations are usually hard won and there were solid reasons not to eat the word of "the kid" as final and start lighting up the torches.

Accepting the TKS callback and keeping an open mind toward setting this right on Bob's part was good common sense and sharing that here afterwards was common courtesy. Like I said before, a class act and a more useful way forward for all involved.
 
It would be nice if TKS confirmed their policy on testing. That would stop the speculation.
 
I'll see what I can do. Lets try and keep speculation down until Lance has a chance to respond.
 
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Andy Lewis said:
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So I read this yesterday, twice, and I got irritated at some of the responses to the OP. Consequently I became the lowly rat bastard who called TKS to let them know why their ears were burning. Lance took the call and the problem was acknowledged directly and confronted in a more useful way than what had started to happen here.

I have no dog in this one personally, but Jim Lemke's outfit has been serving custom and hand-made shops all over for many years. His company has successfully HT and tested literally thousands of blades for more than a few satisfied makers.

Bob I’m glad that you decided to give TKS a third shot and that you had the common decency to share it here. Class act. Good or bad, please follow up when you can.

Until the full story has been told, I would hope any interested folks would learn to hold public pronouncements against a businessman that has worked long and hard to build a solid reputation. Mistakes happen and I doubt this will be their last (if indeed it is actually on them here - still need more info yet), but fairness was out the door here in short order IMHO. That is not consistent with the personalities of most other makers I know/admire so much (especially outside their shops). I appreciate Stacy also sharing his mindset on this; he again shows the advantage of being wise over just being smart.

We should keep in mind the genuine consequences resulting from the easy/simple act of publically trashing a man's reputation until the basic facts are in hand. Businesses that support our madness at this level are few and far between and makers tend to have long memories. The Golden Rule is still relevant I want to believe.

[/RANTMODE OFF]
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How would you have handled this?

Would have contacted them, allowed them retreat, then you retest them, then draw conclusion? Would you then post the whole sequence of events?
 
OK, I heard back from Lance Reid. He is waiting for the blades to arrive to test them and do whatever it takes to make things right. He will post a full comment when he has the actual testing information.

To encapsulate his message to me, he said they hardness test every batch of blades if all are from the same steel batch (which these were), but not every blade in the batch unless requested or indicated by the first test. They are very HT conscious, and he got his start with HT.

Lets all sit back and wait for the results before carrying this any farther as far as discussion of this particular batch.
 
TKS already said they would take care of it. Why is this still being dragged out?

Let them take care of it in peace
 
Thank you for the update. This is why I test each knife. I do a coupon from the bar of steel and check the as quenched hardness as well now.
 
PT Doc said:
How would you have handled this?

Would have contacted them, allowed them retreat, then you retest them, then draw conclusion? Would you then post the whole sequence of events?
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Seriously? You sir have not been paying attention then.

Yes I would have been phoning in a callback for Jim Lemke from my 2009 Ratbastardmobile while I carried the same box to the post office wearing a new label and new tape.

Irritating for sure but anything else would be a waste of time. From past dealings with him, I have confidence TKS would make this right with no need to post anything here except maybe kudos and some new knives.

But then again I HT my own stuff so I should probably just sit down and shut up at this point... :D
 
RangerBob - If you wish, you can close this thread temporarily and re-open it later. Just click the "close this thread" box at the bottom left of the Quick Reply window. You can re-open it the same way.
 
bladsmth said:
RangerBob - If you wish, you can close this thread temporarily and re-open it later. Just click the "close this thread" box at the bottom left of the Quick Reply window. You can re-open it the same way.
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Probably the best bet, to avoid "haters" and "fanboys" bickering back and forth... Except that it prevents a TKS rep from responding to it directly. Hearsay reports of reassuring emails/phone calls from third parties are nice, I suppose... but them taking the time to post a direct response from the boss or other responsible person would mean a lot. Apparently they know about this discussion, so... why wouldn't they?

(Unless of course they don't care about the biggest knife forum on the planet... which I doubt.)

Sorry to seem so negative, but I've had so many fouled-up orders from this particular vendor (more wrong than right, in fact) that frankly I just don't trust 'em. I don't really care anymore if the owner is a great guy or not, or they just have a habit of hiring schlubs who don't know what's going on, or what. The end result was the same to me... lost money and time.

Maybe that's changed, since I haven't dealt with them at all in a couple years. I certainly hope so.
 
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My purpose in starting this thread was not to bash Texas Knifemakers Supply. It was to ascertain from the knowledgeable members of this forum whether my blades were useable as treated and if not, could they be re-treated? I mentioned that none of my blades had been hardness tested as a statement of fact pertaining to the situation. It was disappointing to find that my first batch of blades, which I had worked very hard on, were not useable as treated but, it was a relief to learn that they could be re-treated to bring them up to the correct hardness. I have shipped the blades back to TKS to re-treat. I expect that I will hear from Lance when they are done. When I have them back in hand, I will post up and let everyone know how things get resolved. I fully believe that they will be right and there will be no further issue.

Stacy - I do not have the option to close the thread. If you would like to close it for now, that is fine with me and I can send you a message when I'm ready to open it again.

Bob
 
I'll do that. Just send me a message and I will re-open it.

Thread Temporarily Closed....will be back soon.
 
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