My first knife: as I do each step and post pics, feel free to critique my work.

chemistguy said:
yeah it is a bit stubby / wide but I think it will be just fine with moderately thin scales on it
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I figured you just had large hands. I once shook hands with a Scotsman who had hands that had to be at least 5.5" wide. A good handle design will prevent hot spots while you are working. A good reason to make a mock up. Heck, make one out of straight 1/2" plywood. Practice tapping it against things for 10 - 15 min. Check how good your hand feels.
 
chemistguy said:
yeah it is a bit stubby / wide but I think it will be just fine with moderately thin scales on it
Click to expand...

Once you have acknowledged a problem with your work you should address it. Thin scales don't make up for a handle that is too fat. It just adds another layer of problem to the project. Once it's done the handle still won't feel right.
 
I have average sized hands (size 9 lab gloves). should I bring the top of the handle down some more and bring the coil and palm swell up a bit? I did make a 1/2" plywood cutout and it felt pretty good even before I rounded the edges. I could do HT and then shape the handle more if necessary once the scales are on. The blade probably won't get heat treated very far past the ricasso up the handle because I only have a small forge.

actually I just love big meaty things in my hands :D
 
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I think you have a reluctance to size it down now , because you figure you may screw it up. Do it now man: the handle, and the blade. Look at the one you are using as a go ahead. The blade width and length suit the handle and the handle the blade. Lots of advice you asked for. Go with it or don't ask. If you want it "chubby" just do it. Are hand filing? I expect so. Make sure you have weeks to do a reasonable job of doing the bevels. It's slow tedious work to begin with but gets better the further along you get - if you do a good job as you go. Stay with it !!! At this point, I too believe your pattern needs modification to both look and work well. Frank
 
I'm sticking to the pattern. Today I ground the blade half of the way. Tomorrow I'll grind it down to a mm at the edge and drill holes for 3 pins.
 
actually I think might make a small radius for the flap of skin between my thumb and first finger, and for the other side of my palm (under my pinkie). kinda like a busse, but not as deep. how does that sound?
 
update: ready for HT unless I still want to modify the handle at all. I need to go out and buy some canola or vegetable oil and find a suitable metal container. edge is down to about .05". pins are .25" and nearly an inch long, holes are currently drilled at .21". last pin has a lanyard hole. the scales are going to go about 1/4" from the plunge line and 1/4" from the butt.

the railroad spike I twisted with a vice and a pipe wrench yesterday. the forge is so sweeet. the color of the rust on the spike is a bit strange, a deep red like cinnabar. weird, because I was using some coal I picked up off the railroad instead of charcoal, and coal contains mercury (although I think the concentration, at around 10 ppm, is too low to be the cause of this color rust.

Photo_on_1_17_14_at_6_32_PM_2.jpg
 
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which wood for the scales? The wood on the left is Jamaican Dogwood and I don't know what the other two are. the top one might be a bit rotten, I can't really tell. it has some blackish stains. they were all sanded and finished with tung oil. I don't have a good camera at the moment so I'm going to get advice from someone in person.

Photo_on_1_18_14_at_12_12_AM_2.jpg
 
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well if nobody has any suggestions about HT in my charcoal forge, I will go ahead and get the canola / vegetable /peanut oil and vitamin e for a quench bath along with some sort of metal container (paint can?), and I will heat it as hot as I can and soak it for 10 min, air cool to black and quench, heat it to a dull cherry, soak for 10 minutes, air cool to black and then quench, then heat as hot as I can, soak for 10 min, immediately quench, test with file, finally 2x at 400 F for 1 hr each in the oven. is the normalizing necessary or will it just burn the crap out of my blade?

fuuuark... today I woke up sneezing blood, fk those paper masks. some of that wood is really awful on the lungs. currently ordering a 3M 6000 off amazon with p100 filters.
 
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Chemistguy

Please read some of the stickies and previous threads about 1084 HT.
Canola oil is fine for your quenchant. Vitamin E is for rubbing on stretch marks on old ladies butts and thighs, and something that health food stores make money on by telling you that you need it ( which is 99% baloney)....but not for quenching steel. The theory that it will retard oxidation in the oil because it is an anti-oxidant is just plain foolishness. In a few years you may take organic chemistry and cellular biology, and understand the difference. What vitamin E can do for you is greatly increase your chances of bleeding and hemorrhagic stroke.


To do the HT on your 1084 steel you heat it to 1650°F and cool to black, then dunk in water to cool to room temp. Then you heat it to dull red, and still magnetic, cool to black and dunk in water again. These steps are called normalization. They remove stresses and get the steel ready to harden.
Next you heat it to 1475-1500°F, and hold long enough for the entire blade to equalize in temperature and color ( I doubt you can hold it at an even temp for 10 minutes in your coal forge, and that is not needed for 1084), and quench in 120-130°F canola oil. You want the metal can filled with the oil to be 4" deeper than the blade and at about 5" wide. A paint can will work well for smaller knives, but something taller is a better choice for a 10" long knife. You need the whole knife to go under the oil. DO NOT just quench the blade part only or you will have a flare-up ( as well as inviting other problems). For a 10" knife you may need three gallons of oil. Can you use less .... sure .... will it harden the knife as well....NO.




Finally,
Don't try and put an unusual or complex explanation to simple things. This is called the Law of Parsimony ( Ockham's razor). The red stuff isn't some dangerous mercuric oxide...it is iron oxide, AKA red oxide...AKA rouge. Nothing complex about how it got there or why it is red. When you heated the spike red hot, the iron in the metal ( probably about 99.2% iron) reacted with the elemental oxygen in the air. That reaction Fe+O:O ( atmospheric oxygen) = FeO2 . Upon dunking in water to cool it off ( I suspect you did this) some of the iron oxide dissolved into the hot water film on the surface and then crystalized on the spike as red iron oxide as the water evaporated. The structure and arrangement of the atoms in those crystals absorb all light in the 650nm range, thus it appears red to your eye.

Just a straight forward question...no insinuation...How old are you, and what level of chemistry study are you at?

"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"
"Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora"
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"
 
I've read multiple, multiple threads about HT of 1084, and the recipes all vary significantly. It's also difficult with my forge because I only have a magnet which will tell me when I reach ~1414 F during heating (not cooling). I can do the HT at night but I've read that the colors still aren't very accurate, with at best +/- 20-30% error. The hardness charts and tempering charts for 1084 vary wildly, so what am I supposed to believe?

I don't know all about all the different vitamins. I'm a chemist, not a biologist or even a biochemist.

I've taken two organic chemistry courses and cellular biology.

I was just wondering about the mercury because it looked similar to certain mercury compounds I've seen in the lab, and because I've never seen iron oxide such a deep bright red. Iron almost always rusts orange-red or orange in my experience. The reason I came up with the weird explanation is that the color just happened to remind me of the mercury compounds and didn't seem like normal rust, and I'd rather take safety seriously. Mercury is a dangerous neurotoxin and any exposure above zero is bad for you. In fact, I don't think I'm going to use coal again. Charcoal works fine and there's no risk of inhaling mercury vapors from the smoke.

I'm 21 and have junior standing in college. I'm taking time off and am going back in the fall. I've published a chemistry paper.
 
Let me give you this. There are some wonderfully knowledgeable people in this forum. Do not pretend to know more than you do. And, at this point I believe that to be not too much. Which is fine if you leave it at that. You have been told what the heat treating is for the steel you are using by one of the best. As well you were also told to read the "stickies" above. Why would you even ask questions if you don't trust the people responding? Send your blade off to Peter"s , or Paul Bos to have it done. Frank
 
I am not sure what charts or stickies you have read for 1084, but varying significantly or wildly are not things I have noticed.
Almost all references from knowledgeable and experienced sources I have seen use an austenitization temp of 1475-1500°F, and call for no soak time after the blade is fully at temperature. Temper ranges a bit, depending on use, but the forks who do it all the time use a temp around 400°F.

If you want a bit of the "why" for these things, here is Kevin Cashen's excellent thread on " Working with Three Steels". It and much more can be found in the Metallurgy stickies. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

Don't take any of my comments as putting you down. I was going on you being a college student and not knowing much about knifemaking. Keep at your knife making path, and get back to your studies as soon as possible. I tend to lean on those I think have the best chance of understanding the situation. Those who really don't want to learn, I usually don't reply to at all.

BTW, the coal found along the RR tracks is fine for the heating stove, but not good for forging. You want Pocahontas #3 forging coal, or lump charcoal ( not briquettes). You can get it from most blacksmith supplies. If you live out of town, you can make a charcoal burn barrel from an old 55 gallon drum and a big plate of 1/4" steel to close off the top.
 
Frank,

I've looked at the stickies and the count's info.

I don't pretend to know more than I do.

I don't know much when it comes to knife making.

I'm just asking questions.
 
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Stacy,

I finally figured out why I thought the charts varied so much... one had a scale for ºC on the top and ºF on the bottom... I read the ºC.... fail.

My main concern is still how can I tell when I reach 1500F before the quench? If I have no way to tell, I might overheat the steel or not heat it hot enough. I can test it with a magnet but that will only tell me when it reaches 1414F on heating. Is the idea to keep taking it out of the forge on heating and check it with the magnet until it reaches nonmagnetic, then heat it what seems like a couple of temperature-color shades hotter?

Also how small should I break my lump charcoal, and is there an easy way to process a lot of it into smaller pieces?

Thanks.
 
chemistguy said:
It's also difficult with my forge because I only have a magnet which will tell me when I reach ~1414 F during heating (not cooling).
Click to expand...


chemistguy said:
Stacy,

I finally figured out why I thought the charts varied so much... one had a scale for ºC on the top and ºF on the bottom... I read the ºC.... fail.

My main concern is still how can I tell when I reach 1500F before the quench? If I have no way to tell, I might overheat the steel or not heat it hot enough. I can test it with a magnet but that will only tell me when it reaches 1414F on heating. Is the idea to keep taking it out of the forge on heating and check it with the magnet until it reaches nonmagnetic, then heat it what seems like a couple of temperature-color shades hotter?

Also how small should I break my lump charcoal, and is there an easy way to process a lot of it into smaller pieces?

Thanks.
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What temperature does pure NaCl salt melt at ?

1474 F

How about that ?

Iodized table salt is not pure, the Kosher is.


What good is chemistry knowledge if you can't apply it.
They sell temperature crayon sticks formulated at many many temp points too

Also how small should I break my lump charcoal, and is there an easy way to process a lot of it into smaller pieces?
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Hit it with a hammer
 
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The 1084 was made with you in mind,just do it.Use your magnet to get close then make an educating guess.After the quench check it with a file.If it still bites ,do it again until you get it right.Trial and error,thats what it takes.
 
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