My first knife (design pics...questions)

K

KaosX

Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
205
First off let me say hi and thanks for all the great information to read (I'm still reading the newbies threads and steel selection threads etc).
My interest in knives is mostly for small fixed blades that can be used from day to day for tasks and knives for defensive purposes. I have a few knife classes coming up this year but wasn't able to get the knife I wanted before they were not being sold anymore.

Since I just wanted a dull version as a trainer I went ahead and remade the blade with a few changes in autocad and had a local waterjet company cut me one out of 6160 aluminum.

It got me thinking that the whole process of designing and having one cut was actually really fun and I'd like to design my next knife which will be a neck style knife. The issue I ran into was the common ones that you probably hear form most newbies (what steel, how do I harden etc). I think I found enough here to answer those questions.

I think I'm going with something around 1085 for the first one, the blank will likely be waterjet cut again. Most of my questions revolve around getting a good first bevel. I can get to a 1" belt sander - I'm thinking this will do the trick. Are there any threads I missed on keeping a consistent bevel when using a belt to form it? Most of the ones I found were for using files.

As to steel - for a first knife is there anything that is sold at home depot or lowes that would work? I have a 36" bar stock 1/4" thick of something hot rolled there but I'm not sure of the steel type.

And since I promised - here's my reproduction of a knife that I wanted as a trainer so I could take a class with it - the production one should be out soon (again) and I'll be purchasing it.

gimpedtool.png
 
Welcome to Bladeforums! Pretty cool design. Only thing I see is, do you really need an ambidextrous handle? It might be more comfortable with the finger grooves only on one side and then offset the little finger hole. I am a newbie so I can't really offer any advise for making it, but I can tell you that Home Depot etc. does not sell anything close to knife steel. I think their stuff is most likely 1018 mild steel. 1075, 1080, or 1084 are good steels and easy to work, and cheap. Fastenal, or similar stores may have some O1 tool steel or A2 or something similar.


-Xander
 
Why the symmetrical finger grooved handle?

Those points are going to dig into your palm and cause discomfort.
 
I designed it that way basically copying the design of the original knife which is currently not produced.

It's a self defense application tool - that's all I'd be using it for. The symmetry was so that as long as you got your grip the orientation would be the same weather you were hammer/pikal grip on either side.

I had considered making it just a palm swell of sorts - but I figured I'd make my trainer as close to the real thing as possible.

My next knife is likely going to be a neck knife with a small blade. I'll likely have it water cut again - I imagine it will be something like a single or double finger ring with a claw on the end of it.

Due to the cost of my local waterjet place being high (that blade above cost me $30 to have cut including the 6"x1" piece of aluminum - I'll likely order some steel and send it out somewhere.

I'm just wading through the myriad of steels and what's a good thickness etc etc etc.

Although...I do know someone who works a CNC for a living and that might be an option.

If the groovepoints are too pointy, I'll change the design if I'm going to have it made, otherwide I'll probably file them down, or wrap it in paracord. Almost wish though there were knife making classes around here or someone I could take a lesson or two of off.
 
KaosX said:
Almost wish though there were knife making classes around here or someone I could take a lesson or two of off.
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[Rant] I think you just got a lesson! Get rid of those finger grooves and go with the palm swell!!! If your smart you will listen to us, what are we? (hint...knife makers!) GASP! :eek: that means we know how to make a weapon/tool that wont turn your palm into hamburger! There's a reason that isnt produced anymore! Also dont come looking for advice if your not going to take it! just post "Come look and praise me on my great SD knife that does as much damage to the user as the perp! Holy crap! Where's the Tylenol! [/Rant]

Hey nice knife,:thumbup: wont that handle hurt your palm though? :o :D :p


Jason :rolleyes:
 
JasonSCarter said:
[Rant] I think you just got a lesson! Get rid of those finger grooves and go with the palm swell!!! If your smart you will listen to us, what are we? (hint...knife makers!) GASP! :eek: that means we know how to make a weapon/tool that wont turn your palm into hamburger! There's a reason that isnt produced anymore! Also dont come looking for advice if your not going to take it! just post "Come look and praise me on my great SD knife that does as much damage to the user as the perp! Holy crap! Where's the Tylenol! [/Rant]]QUOTE]

Jason, tell us how you really feel. It's unhealthy to keep them bottled up like that. :D
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I think Jason might be a little frustrated with the constant "how does this look-can it be better" and when advice is given it turns into "well, I'm going to do it my way anyway"

it's ok Jason, just keep doing what your doing;)
 
Just for the record, I don't know that I've seen a worse "self-defense" knife design. If that thing was ever in production, it was marketed towards mall ninjas!

That knife design is most definitely not a 'self defense application tool'. Self defense starts with a solid foundation of logic and reason, not mean-looking cutlery. There is nothing about that design that makes it better for fighting than any hundred other blades on the market. What do the professional fighters use on the battlefront every day? Do their knives look like this? Is there a reason for that? What's on the local SWAT team's belts? Why is that?

People that really do have their lives on the line have a long history of trial and error, and they've come up with some pretty good solutions to everyday problems that you or I might have missed. Does the guy carry a small fixed-blade because it looks cool or because it's been proven to accomplish the widest array of tasks, including killing people?

The grip is all wrong for a comfortable day of practice sparring and will quickly chew your hand up. The points should go towards the bad guy, not your palm.

The circle on the end is for what? Opening beers? I'm cool with that, but the whole kerambit idea is outdated, at best, and is asking for a broken finger. While weapon retention is a good idea, sometimes being able to get shed of said weapon is also a good idea. The kerambit design traps your finger/thumb in a lock that could very easily break said limb if the bad guy has the luck or skills.

My thoughts? Less focus on the fantastic and more on the practical. More people have been killed with Kabars and prison shivs than any mystical Klingon apparatus.

/rant
 
Oh yea Vaughn tell that to these guys...VVV :p
57190314-67e2-44fe-977e-e2990f186843.jpg


SShepherd you got it... and I like having fun on the interwebs :D

Jason . . . :foot::eek::thumbup::p
 
Since when is ridiculing anyone NOT fun? Maybe not always called for...but fun nonetheless. =D

You mean you have never made a joke about anyone about something they couldn't help? I find that hard to believe.

Back on topic, I agree with most about the handle...and I too like the kerambit design but that hole looks massive. A tad too big in my opinion.

Also, look on craigslist for a cheap angle grinder. Buy a cut-off disc and cut it out yourself for that price. I bought one brand new for $50..and you are spending $30 a knife!?
 
Hi, I thought your initial post was respectful and actually far short of some of the inept opening lines you hear from newbies around here. Jason and the others do have a point about the handle, and occasionally you'll get ripped on around here if people get a little frustrated. I'm not a huge fan of the above type of humor but I realize that everyone is different.

You have shown some initiative getting your first KSO cut out. Welcome to Bladeforums, you are on the right track with your reading. You owe it to yourself, especially if you are serious about your weapons training, to find true information and eschew the enormous loads of crap out there. If you look into serious fighting knife design and practice hard you'll sort it out.

We're just trying to save you the time it takes between now and when you're looking at blisters on your palm in the shape of that grip and going "damn, no wonder they quit making that."

Good luck and stick with it. What's your real name?
 
While I can totally understand Jason's frustration, this was a very good response, Salem:thumbup:

To the OP, if you keep an open mind when reading through these responses, you could learn some very valuable lessons. I hope you keep at it if this is what you really enjoy:thumbup:

Salem Straub said:
Hi, I thought your initial post was respectful and actually far short of some of the inept opening lines you hear from newbies around here. Jason and the others do have a point about the handle, and occasionally you'll get ripped on around here if people get a little frustrated. I'm not a huge fan of the above type of humor but I realize that everyone is different.

You have shown some initiative getting your first KSO cut out. Welcome to Bladeforums, you are on the right track with your reading. You owe it to yourself, especially if you are serious about your weapons training, to find true information and eschew the enormous loads of crap out there. If you look into serious fighting knife design and practice hard you'll sort it out.

We're just trying to save you the time it takes between now and when you're looking at blisters on your palm in the shape of that grip and going "damn, no wonder they quit making that."

Good luck and stick with it. What's your real name?
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Whether or not you plan on using the advice offered here is entirely up to you. I'll echo what many have said here that there is no way that knife can feel good in your hand. Now you're saying you had one already water jet for you. If you honestly feel that wrapping your hand around that is comfortable then by all means go for it and good luck. Making a dagger style knife on your first run will likely end in a fair amount of frustration anyway. Keeping everything symmetrical is a challenge for people who have quite a few knives under their belt. There are makers here who have been at it for years who haven't even attempted a dagger blade.

You appear very interested in learning but look at it from a different perspective. You're looking for someone to help you make knives. You have plenty of people here willing to offer you advice and help you through every step of the way if need be. But have you ever tried to help someone who is very new to something and then have them reply "Well that's not the way I want to do it" Or something to that effect? It's very hard to give advice to someone who plans on doing their own thing anyway.

The advice offered here about the design is all very valid, again you can take it or leave it. But bear in mind when you combine the knowledge of the people you're asking on here you talking about hundreds of years worth and a lot of the guys on here do this for a living. Many of which are more than willing to give you step by step advice if you need/want it. All you'd need to do is take pics of your progress and ask how to go about the next step and more than likely you'll get it here. However, again, people aren't going to bother taking their time to offer you advice on how they would do it (again after having done this numerous times) only to have someone totally ignore them.

Either way, good luck in your journey and welcome to BF. Hope we can be of help.
 
If it were me and wanted to stick with a similar design I would go something like this. And again keep in mind this is a 2 second mock up in paint not a CAD design. Regardless I don't see how even that is comfortable in a hammer grip. What purpose does the hole in the butt serve in a hammer grip? Which finger goes in the hole? I almost get the impression it wants to be some kind of karambit but putting your index finger in there would be so awkward because your hand wouldn't fit naturally around the rest of the knife.
 

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Oh, and I wouldn't say the "whole kerambit idea is out dated," an expert with one will likely carve most swordsmen up like a turkey. It depends on the skill of the user, the knife is part of an overall system such as silat, there are strong points to it's design and use, and you can't just dismiss a serious weapon with a few words. What's on the SWAT team's belt? I don't know, but I read that Air Marshals carry a kerambit as backup. Although the above knife does not much resemble a useful kerambit.

As to the question about bevel shaping on a 1" belt, I made many knives that way starting out- here's a link to some grinding tips at my website if you wish. http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinding-tips
 
Salem Straub said:
Oh, and I wouldn't say the "whole kerambit idea is out dated," an expert with one will likely carve most swordsmen up like a turkey. It depends on the skill of the user, the knife is part of an overall system such as silat, there are strong points to it's design and use, and you can't just dismiss a serious weapon with a few words. What's on the SWAT team's belt? I don't know, but I read that Air Marshals carry a kerambit as backup. Although the above knife does not much resemble a useful kerambit.
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Agreed like anything else any weapon is only as effective as the person wielding it. Since Pentjak/Silat also has a large amount of trapping and joint manipulation in it, it's not very easy to "trap a trapper". Especially when they're well versed using a karambit. The whole system revolves around techniques that can be applied empty handed as well with a weapon. The whole concept of the muscle destruction shots in those arts are designed to be applied wither way. A parry, then punch to the bicep or tricep (empty hand). Is considerably more effective when the punch is replaced with a knife. Also braking someone finger in a karambit does what? You likely still haven't stripped the weapon, they can have 4 more fingers wrapped around it and the broken finger isn't stopping a fight. The whole leverage you get with joint manipulation is pain compliance. Once you go past that "wow that really hurts" point and break a joint you've lost a lot of your leverage. The joint is broken and while it may throb and ache you no longer have the influence you did while you were applying pressure making go a direction is wasn't ment to go.

Perhaps in the US you hear a lot more about people being killed with shivs and Ka Bars. However how often do you follow the news in countries like the Philippines or other areas of the world where that weapon is common to many people?

Regardless no matter how you cut it (no pun intended). The best way to fight anyone with a knife is with a gun. Going empty hand against anyone holding a knife is a formula for a guaranteed way to bleed.
 
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KaosX said:
My next knife is [snip] neck knife a with small blade. [snip]imagine it will be something like a single or double finger ring with a claw on the end of it.
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I have this inbound to me sometime this week.
dpbh.jpg


Roughly 4 inches long overall, made entirely of s30v that's double ground.

It is PURELY an SD designed neck knife. Hammer strikes or just blocking with a pikal grip. You can picture the rest.
 
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