My first knife - Getting closer, what grit to heat treat?

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DNickell

Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
19
Been lurking on YouTube and here for a while, I thought I was going to wait and buy a 2x72 first.

After much debating I decided to go about it with what I have at the moment, and see how I like this knife making stuff. I love knives, and love the thought of making knives. I decided to give it a try this way and see if the thought matches up with real life.

I currently have a decent Wilton vise, Dremel tool, Roto zip with 3.5" cut off wheel, drill, a few hand files.

I have used a template from the interwebs and made a pattern form 1/4" wood (it's what I had). I thought I would post it here and make sure it is a good design.

I have 4 pieces of steel, 1/8 x 1 1/2 x 12 in 440c and 01 then 5/32 x 1 1/2 x 12 in the same 440c and 01

With this design and size, would I be better off using the 1/8 or 5/32 ?

I live 20 miles from Texas knife makers and could drive over and have them heat treat if I use the 440c. If I use the 01, I'll have to do the heat treating myself. Is there one that will be easier to hand file? Or is it all the same?

I'm leaning toward omitting the Choil at this point.

I'm going to make the file guide from Gough Custom, and use that for my filling.

Thanks for any input.

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It looks like you are ready to go. I suggest you read the stickies at the top of the page for some very good help. The 01 in the 1/8" size will be the easiest for you to work and will make a very good knife if it gets the right heat treatment.
My best to you on your making start.
Frank
 
The feature you are calling out in your photo is called a "Spanish Notch". The pattern you have looks very good and should make a useful knife. The 01 will make a very sharp knife with the proper geometry.
 
Looks good to me. The only thing I would look at is your pin placement. From what I can tell the rear pin is about 1-1/2" from the butt of the knife and the front pin is about 1-1/8" from the front of the scale. For visual balance I try to keep these distances equal.
 
It's so refreshing for a first new post where someone has done some research and has formed a plan.




I say eighth is plenty thick for this


I also say go full height flat grind.

It's much more difficult to get that top grind line matched from side to side

Full flat grind gives you a little wiggle room.


I like a choil

Yes, maybe move the rear pin back some
 
Thanks for the responses.

I'll make sure the pins are equally spaced and try a full flat grind.
 
So I finally got things sorted out, got my profile done and began the process of doing the bevel with a file today.

Using the file guide, I noticed the tip of the blade was not being "hit" by the file like the rest of the blade because the file guide (wood portion) was being hit, preventing the file from reaching the tip of the blade. I began re-positioning the blade and hitting the tip and tried to keep it uniform with the rest of the blade.

As you can see from the photos, it looks like I got it thin out on the tip and it is just starting to flatten the tip. I am now down to an angle where I can file the whole blade without having to re-position.

How do I save the tip? File the profile so the drop point is more pronounced? Or is there a better way? And at what point do I make the correction in the profile?

Can the tip be saved? Keep in mind, I don't have any calipers or fancy equipment. I have rulers, Dremel tool and hand files.

I also think my Plunge line should be in the middle of the Choil, but it is where it is now..... I'm learning.

Thanks for any direction.

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DNickell,

Watch Aaron's video again and pay close attention to how he angles his file when working the tip. It should help you a bit with your next knife. As for fixing this one, you can certainly drop the top of the profile to bring the point back. That is probably the easiest route. You can also file the edge up. That will thicken your edge a bit and may require more filing to get the edge thin enough again. You can also do a combination of the two. I would go for the first option. Just make sure you blend the top curve down gradually and gracefully. You got this.
 
Too late now, but you don't add the choil until after making the edge. That way you can place it where you wish. What you have is OK, but as you said, it is best when bisected by the plunge. Overall, your knife is coming along quite well.

Don't forget to drill the tang holes before HT. Make them about 50% larger than the pins you will use. This gives a little "wiggle room" when installing the scales. For 1/8" pins, use a 3/16" drill bit. It isn't an exact thing, just that you want a bit of extra room. Some folks drill all tang holes at 1/4".

The below method works for filing the bevels on any knife from a paring knife up to a sword. It is also the very best way of supporting the blade during hand sanding. I highly recommend it for new makers. Most of the pros already do it.
Drill the tang holes right after you have shaped the profile, and use them to bolt the blade on a 2X4 arm to file and sand it. The arm can be held in a vise or screwed to the workbench top. Set the blade on the 2" side of the board with the tip almost at the end and drill the tang holes all the way through the wood. Attach the blade to the wood with long bolts in the holes using wing nuts. Mark around the edge area. Flip the blade to the other side and mark the edge area on the wood again. Cut/file/rasp/grind the wood at a 45° angle up to the lines so it matches the edge shape and you can file quite well with no flex of the blade as you reach the tip. Don't worry about it being a perfect match, as you will file away any excess wood as you file the steel. To work on your bevels, just undo the nuts and flip the blade over as you work from side to side. A drop of CA glue on the heads of the bolts will keep them in place. A tap with a wooden mallet will knock them out.
 
Thanks all for the advice.

I'll work on dropping the point.

I like the idea of the 2x4 on end. The problem I ran into with Aaron's file guide is you would have to file away a significant portion of the wooden guide to reach the tip of this blade. I'm going to try the 2x4 in conjunction with this guide on the next blade.

I'm also skipping the choil next time. What messed it up this time, was having to flip the blade over about 10 times, being off a hair per flip would move the plunge line a fraction x 5 times per side.

I'll drill my tang holes today. I was holding off because I did not have a #30 drill bit (nor any pins or scale material). I think I was waiting to see if this was going to be worth scales. It might be worth it just for the experience at this point.
 
Just to be clear,
the blade is bolted on the end of the long 2" side of the 2X4...not the actual end grain end.
 
Thank everyone who chimed in on this project. I did learn a lot in this process.

I think I got the tip fixed for the most part. I went slow and did a draw file along the spine with the blade in a vise just until it was pointy like a tip again.

I got the blade back in the file guide and finished up the bevel, and things were good except for the plunge lines. They were not clean and crisp and in reality not especially lined up well.

When I thought I would clean up the plunge lines, I used a small triangle file...... didn't pay attention to the portion up near the spine & got some unsightly grooves where they don't belong.

  • I know the file was eating away my " Stop bolt", I was able to knock the sharp corners off of the file, but using a dremel tool and eating every tip I put in it, a radius was not going to happen. My file also has teeth on the sides
  • I now know, when I lock down a blade to bevel one side..... Do not keep flipping it over numerous times trying to line the plunge line back up each time. This is also related to my blade profile and particular file guide.
  • I really like the idea of bolting the blade profile down and working on it, I think I also need a bar of steel clamped down for the plunge line.


To me this blade does not look like it can be saved, I thought maybe a "contoured spine" just in front of where the scales would be, but it sounds ridiculous to say out loud.

I enjoyed what I was doing, even when I was doing it all wrong, so I will attempt another one. I think I will pick up a bench grinder first to help with the profile. I'll also make a more usable file guide specific to the next blade profile

As much as I hate showing these photos, maybe someone can see what can go wrong and avoid what I did here.

This is looking down on the spine.
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This just shows what I got the tip back too
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The other side of shame
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No problem. That happens to all of us...often. Just sand the tang down until it is right. Actually, you want to sand the tang down until there is a little peninsula sticking out from the plunge along the top of the bevel. This gives you the little bit you will need to remove in sanding.

Next time, stop a bit sooner. Remember the koan that applies to all knife making - "You can always take a little more off later...but can never put any back on."
 
Not bad, I'd finish it out.Make a nice handle, make it sharp ,and know one will notice.You're at a cross roads where many quite.Good luck. Lu.
 
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I'm not sure how much hand sanding it would take to sand both sides of the tang down to meet the grooves. I'm guessing a lot of hours.

Plus the plunge lines all the way down to the edge are not even or correct. Trying to fix that is what got me into the spine grooves.

I thought very briefly about doing (attempting) a swedge, but I'm thinking even if I pulled that off, the plunge lines are still a tragedy. I may see if I can hand sand the tang and make it work for the experience, but I don't think the plunges can be fixed by me with my tools.

Might make a nice exercise for attempting scales though. I gotta learn to do those too.
 
DNickell,

Don't give up. You have a lot of work in the knife already. As long as you keep learning something from the exercise keep going. You can true up the plunges and fix the run off at the spine. All it takes is time and effort. Use a round chainsaw file to clean up the plunge lines and make them even. They come in a few sizes and are available at your local Lowes or Home Depot. They aren't too expensive so get all the sizes if you can afford it. They will all come in handy sooner or later. The round shape of the chainsaw file will give you a nice rounded shape in the plunge and cause less stress to the blade. A file with square corners or a triangular file will make sharp corners which will cause stress risers in the blade as well as make ugly plunge shapes. You will have to remove material from the side of the ricasso if you want to fix the plunge over run as was mentioned. You can use a large flat file to remove material faster then clean it up with sandpaper. You have plenty of room to move the plunge line back a hair. Put your file guide on the blade just far enough back from the existing plunge so that you are into fresh ricasso on both sides of the blade. If you will be using a chainsaw file to do the clean up, keep the radius of the file in mind when placing the file guide. You want to move the guide far enough back to allow the radius of the chainsaw file to erase the square corner cut by the files you already used. In your last picture it looks as though your tip is still a bit round. You can take a smidge more material off the top to make a truly pointy tip.

Listen, persistence will pay off. I was working on a paring knife last week. I had the whole blade finished. It was heat treated, finish sanded and ready for the handle scales. I am very careful but the gremlins in my shop weren't going to be happy unless they put in their two cents. Well, of course the blade came off the bench and headed for the floor. No worries, the floor along my workbench is covered with foam rubber tiles for just this reason. It was a nice idea but naturally the knife hit the padding tip first, went through the tiles like butta and impacted the concrete floor snapping the tip off the blade. I had to take a moment......or two......or three....to compose myself. So, I re-profiled the tip. All I needed to do was get the scales on and grind/sand to shape and get it outta here. Glue up went fine, gave it plenty of time to cure, but over cooked it during grinding and one of the scales started to come loose at the ends. I can tell you I wanted very badly to hurl the thing into the woods. After another few moments of regaining my sanity and composure I redoubled my determination. I waited until it was nice and cool cleaned out the gap thoroughly and clamped it up with fresh epoxy. I finished that knife yesterday and I'll be thrilled to put it in the mail if I can manage to do that without screwing it up too.

I think you know the point of the story. If you want to make knives you have to learn how to fix screw ups. It's part of the job. Hang in there. Do the work. It will turn out great.
 
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