My Knife Got Confiscated from Me

Urban Dweller said:
San Jo does have a length limit similar to L.A. and S.F. of 3 inches (CA in general has no length limit on folders). Legally he could have confiscated your Endura, but not for the reason of its opening mechanism just for the length restriction. There's also the issue of concealment where in CA. you cannot conceal a knife over 2 inches, meaning it has to be visible i.e. clip showing..
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Do you have a reference for your assertion about San Jose law? I've looked at the municipal code and cannot find any reference to a length restriction on knives.

Your assertion that "you cannot conceal a knife over 2 inches" is simply not true. While it is not legal to conceal a "dirk or dagger," and that has generally been understood to apply to any fixed balde knife, it does not apply to folding knives.
 
If there was a D.E.A agent involved, there is a lot more to the story. GOOGLE " How to keep from getting your ass kicked by the police" by Chris Rock. If it is still on the net, it is a very good tutorial. regards Henry
 
if your knife could be wrist flicked it could be argued to be a gravity knife which as i read it is same as switchblade.could you beat the ticket/charge?probably,but do you have the time money and clean enough record to chance it?
 
nagod said:
if your knife could be wrist flicked it could be argued to be a gravity knife which as i read it is same as switchblade.could you beat the ticket/charge?probably,but do you have the time money and clean enough record to chance it?
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In post #4 Critter provided the California penal statute that applies to this. As long as there is a ball detent or other feature designed to hold the blade closed/in the handle then it is not considered a switchblade or gravity knife. The ability to "flip" a knife open using inertia does not cancel-out this exception.

If anyone in law enforcement or the criminal justice system tries to argue that ones knife violates this statute because it can be "flipped" open using inertia, any halfway decent defense attorney could argue that the pivot was loose, or that the pivot was loosened by the cops opening and closing it, or simply playing with it.

But as long as the knife has a ball detent, I can't imagine any prosecuter spending their limited time and the DA's offices limited resources trying to prosecute a case where the knife in question clearly has the feature (ball detent) that the law requires it to have.
 
Sorry to hear your knife was taken. I am a LEO in alameda County for the better part of 31 years. First I commend you for telling the truth. If you lie and they have probable cause and then search you, you may get in more trouble. When LEO's deal with a misdemeanor they have the discretion to arrest or cite and release or less. If you lie and they find out the discretion is out the window.

If the DEA agent was really a Fed, he may or may not be familiar with CA law, and probally not with local ordanaces. Every cop should give you a receipt either in person or by mail later, and they are supposed to place it into their property/evidence room even if it is to be destroyed. If they don't, then they are stealing.

The law was recently changed and leaves it to the LEO to interpret its meaning. So technically your knife is illegal if it opens by a flick of the wrist and does not have a mechanism to place resistance on the blade to keep it from opening, or needs pressure applied to the blade to open. (see below).

Alll LEO's are going to react differently some don't care and some due depending where they work and the type of crime in the area. Always ask to speak to a supervisor if your are in doubt. They cannot hold that against you. I don't endorse this section but that's what we have to work with. I don't think every LEO is out to steal your knives, but some are not knife enthusiasts like the people on this forum, just as many are not gun enthusiasts and therefore more strictly enforce the laws we have.

I know this does not help as far as the loss of the knife but maybe help you understand why some LEO's react differently.

California Penal Code Section 17235 (formerly 653k)

As used in this part, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife
that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.
 
Ossa1970 said:
The law was recently changed and leaves it to the LEO to interpret its meaning. So technically your knife is illegal if it opens by a flick of the wrist and does not have a mechanism to place resistance on the blade to keep it from opening, or needs pressure applied to the blade to open. (see below).

. . .

California Penal Code Section 17235 (formerly 653k)

As used in this part, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife
that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.
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While the law was recently changed, the legislative history that I have seen indicates that it was reorganized/renumbered and that no substantive change was intended. The provisions of 653k are now separated into several different sections. Are you aware of any other changes?
 
acourvil said:
While the law was recently changed, the legislative history that I have seen indicates that it was reorganized/renumbered and that no substantive change was intended. The provisions of 653k are now separated into several different sections. Are you aware of any other changes?
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PC Sections-

16470 - dirk or dagger: description
17235 - Switchblades : description /exceptions
20200 - sheath knife: description
21310 - dirk or Dagger: carrying
21510 - Switchblades : carries In vehicle, on person or sells loans etc..


Their are more dealing with cane guns, carrying on school grounds ect. I have a list of the changes at work, if I can find them I will post them. I go back to work Sunday.
 
Henry44 said:
If there was a D.E.A agent involved, there is a lot more to the story. GOOGLE " How to keep from getting your ass kicked by the police" by Chris Rock. If it is still on the net, it is a very good tutorial. regards Henry
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I agree: lot more to the story. Decades ago, my (now late) sister was involved with drugs and unsavory characters. She embezzled from a bank where she worked and the FBI came to my parents' house to inquire as to her wherebouts (she skipped town, one step ahead of the law). I was visiting at the time and met the two FBI agents (a man and a woman). I was carrying my standard 4" lockblade folder. I was not "frisked" and neither were my parents. My parents made arrangements to repay the missing money and the matter was dropped. As far as I know, federal agents enforce federal law, not state law.
 
Ossa1970 said:
PC Sections-

16470 - dirk or dagger: description
17235 - Switchblades : description /exceptions
20200 - sheath knife: description
21310 - dirk or Dagger: carrying
21510 - Switchblades : carries In vehicle, on person or sells loans etc..


Their are more dealing with cane guns, carrying on school grounds ect. I have a list of the changes at work, if I can find them I will post them. I go back to work Sunday.
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Thanks, but my question ws really whether you aware of substantive changes, rather than reorganization/renumbering? My understanding was that the changes were submitted as non-substantive.
 
Ossa1970 said:
...... technically your knife is illegal if it opens by a flick of the wrist and does not have a mechanism to place resistance on the blade to keep it from opening, or needs pressure applied to the blade to open. (see below).

.... "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife
that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.
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I'm not a lawyer by any means but this seems to be a significant contradiction. "keep it from opening" is nowhere near the same as "provides resistance", "must be overcome", or "biases the blade"
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but if he already admitted to carrying a "weapon", which is illegal without a permit, then wouldn't it best just to cut losses here? As knife enthusiasts we know what he really meant, but it probably isn't going to make any difference to the court.
 
tom19176 said:
A DEA Agent is a federal officer....Strange that he would try to enforce a local knife law ( or even know it correctly). Are you sure that is where he was from? If he was questioning your about a family member, then he will be talking to other family members and his friends too, so he would not be too hard to ID....
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Unless something changed recently, he would have no authority to enforce state law. It's not like it is on TV. Federal LEO's have jurisdiction over federal crimes only.
 
Thomas...That is why I asked....A Federal Officer has very limited powers in the enforcement of local codes amd laws....
 
acourvil said:
Thanks, but my question ws really whether you aware of substantive changes, rather than reorganization/renumbering? My understanding was that the changes were submitted as non-substantive.
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In short not really. They separated the offenses Ibut they basically stayed the same. They may be some more bug Iam not aware of them.

Just for everyone's info federal agents are LEO or Peace Officers as long as they are engaged in the performance of there duties.

Ca Penal Code 830.8

(a)Federal criminal investigators and law enforcement officers are not California peace officers, but may exercise the powers of arrest of a peace officer in any of the following circumstances:

(1)Any circumstances specified in Section 836 or Section 5150 of the Welfare and Institutions Code for violations of state or local laws.

(2)When these investigators and law enforcement officers are engaged in the enforcement of federal criminal laws and exercise the arrest powers only incidental to the performance of these duties.

(3)When requested by a California law enforcement agency to be involved in a joint task force or criminal investigation.

(4)When probable cause exists to believe that a public offense that involves immediate danger to persons or property has just occurred or is being committed.

In all of these instances, the provisions of Section 847 shall apply. These investigators and law enforcement officers, prior to the exercise of these arrest powers, shall have been certified by their agency heads as having satisfied the training requirements of Section 832, or the equivalent thereof.

This subdivision does not apply to federal officers of the Bureau of Land Management or the Forest Service of the Department of Agriculture. These officers have no authority to enforce California statutes without the written consent of the sheriff or the chief of police in whose jurisdiction they are assigned.

(b)Duly authorized federal employees who comply with the training requirements set forth in Section 832 are peace officers when they are engaged in enforcing applicable state or local laws on property owned or possessed by the United States government, or on any street, sidewalk, or property adjacent thereto, and with the written consent of the sheriff or the chief of police, respectively, in whose jurisdiction the property is situated.

There is more about different LEO's but they do not apply to this topic. This post is on my iPhone so hope it came out ok.

Anyone can pick away at the written law, the real determination is how the local D/A interprets it.
 
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Thanks, but my question ws really whether you aware of substantive changes, rather than reorganization/renumbering? My understanding was that the changes were submitted as non-substantive.

Ossa1970 said:
In short not really. They separated the offenses Ibut they basically stayed the same. They may be some more bug Iam not aware of them.
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So earlier when you said

"The law was recently changed and leaves it to the LEO to interpret its meaning. So technically your knife is
illegal if it opens by a flick of the wrist and does not have a mechanism to place resistance on the blade to
keep it from opening, or needs pressure applied to the blade to open. "

you were really just making up an excuse. The Spyderco Endura is a lockback, and it does have a "mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position." California law has long been clear that one-hand opening knives are not illegal, and as far as I know, no jurisdiction in California has adopted NYC's ridiculous position that anything that can be flicked open by whatever means is illegal.

I have great deal of respect for, and sincerely appreciate the job done by, law enforcement officers, but this kind of creative approach to justifying an inappropriate action is the kind of thing that has a very negative impact on credibility. There may have been other issues at play in this situation, but misrepresenting the law on this point does not help anyone.
 
you shouldn't even talk to cops unless you are being detained, if any cop walks up to me and tries to ask questions I ask them "am I being detained" , and if he says no then I don't have to answer any of his questions.
 
acourvil said:
So earlier when you said

"The law was recently changed and leaves it to the LEO to interpret its meaning. So technically your knife is
illegal if it opens by a flick of the wrist and does not have a mechanism to place resistance on the blade to
keep it from opening, or needs pressure applied to the blade to open. "

you were really just making up an excuse. The Spyderco Endura is a lockback, and it does have a "mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position." California law has long been clear that one-hand opening knives are not illegal, and as far as I know, no jurisdiction in California has adopted NYC's ridiculous position that anything that can be flicked open by whatever means is illegal.

I have great deal of respect for, and sincerely appreciate the job done by, law enforcement officers, but this kind of creative approach to justifying an inappropriate action is the kind of thing that has a very negative impact on credibility. There may have been other issues at play in this situation, but misrepresenting the law on this point does not help anyone.
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What excuss? The law is very clearly written, here is the old Penal Code section 653k

§ 653k. Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor.

For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.
For purposes of this section, "passenger's or driver's area" means that part of a motor vehicle which is designed to carry the driver and passengers, including any interior compartment or space therein.


Here is the new reorganized section. Nothing really changed

§ 17235. As used in this part, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.

I am not misrepresenting anything, it's plainly written. You are one of the reasons I dont often respond when someone asks a question about the law. Some People like to argue and accuse others of lying or flame them becuase of their answers. When was the last time you had to enforce any laws? I have been doing it for 31 plus years and have never been sued, or had a case dismissed in court due to my misrepresentation of any code section. If you have an expertise in this field then pass the BAR and start representing defendants in court instead of arguing on the forum.

Do I agree with every law on the books, NO. Do I enforce them, YES. That is my job and I do not let my personal biases influence me, that way everyone gets treated the same, that is the only way everyone gets treated fairly. If the D/A or a Judge/jury does not see it my way for lack of a better word, I do not take it personally. If a law gets overturned, or case law forces the way it is enforced that is the way I will enforce it.


I was mearley trying to assist someone who had a question regarding why something happened. Any arrest made by federal or local LEO's is decided in court by a Judge /jury or by the defendant themselves if they plead quilty.
 
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