My Pet Peeve _ Heat Treat is everything!

D

David Metzger

Joined
Oct 8, 2010
Messages
109
How often do we hear

"It is a very good steel if it is heat treated correctly"?

Or that a company has a proprietary heat treatment that is amazing?

Or the steel doesn't matter much as long as the heat treat is right?

These comments just drive me crazy, how about you?

I am not a metalurgist but have read quite a bit. The facts appear to be "heat treatment is not a secret and refining the heat treatment to go beyond spec is also not a secret" .

Saying CPM154 steel is good "if heat treated correctly" is like saying peanut butter is good when made from fresh peanuts.

If "heat treated correctly" actually meant something it wouldn't be so bad. It leaves the reader without any clue as to how to seek out makers with correct heat treatment or what RC hardness level might be appropriate for a certain steel and use. I believe most makers take heat treatment seriously and with adequate research to do a very good job.

David:)
 
Yeah, but there are some folks who DON'T heat treat good steels properly. I know a guy who sets up at all the local gun/knife shows and sells his handmade "Knives". Crude looking things they are, but he sells them cheap enough, so some misinformed souls buy them. I asked the guy about his steel used and his heat treating methods once. His answer? "I use D2 tool steel". Ok, fine enough. D2 is a good steel, IF HEAT TREATED CORRECTLY.(sorry, couldn't resist). ;) But, the guy's next statement floored me. He told me he heat treats his D2 blades with a torch and quenches into used motor oil. No mention was made of a tempering process, though. ???


Guys like this, and several knife companies that fail to do the proper heat treat on their blades; choosing to follow the less expensive routes, are the reason for the "If heat treated correctly" phrase.
 
I guess I could live with "CPM154 (or D2) is not very good "if heat treated incorrectly"". But a casual knife enthusiast does not know what "Heat treated correctly" means. The guy just tells them "I heat treated it "correctly" with a torch and used motor oil" and life goes on with the buyer feeling glad he made sure it was heat treated correctly. I think my point is that it comes close to being meaningless without further explanation.

D
 
best way to say to talk ab out this is the misconception that stainless steels cant hold an edge (coming from old timers )

i think we can say for sure that was set by miss HTed and cheaply done HTs from makers and over seas knife COs and now we have learnd better how to deal with the alloys and get great results

the trick now is getting the masses to relearn that proper HT can make even "crappy" 440c into a good knife that holds an edge
 
I don't take much issue with the phrase, "if heat treated correctly." Because, without a proper heat treatment, pretty much any steel will not serve well as a knife. I guess it falls into the buyer beware area. You're right that most casual customers don't have a clue about what proper heat treatment means. However, it is also a fact that there are a good many "knife makers" who also don't have a clue about what proper heat treatment means. As the customer, you're going to have to navigate those waters, and that usually means word of mouth, industry/peer recognition, and testimonials.

--nathan
 
You see a lot of folks around here that sell knives made from saw blades of various types..Problem is they dont heat treat them..They just cut them out, clean them up and slap handles on them..Then people wonder why they wont cut for more than a few swipes..
 
I think the HT parameters should fall around the duties the knife was built around to perform.. for example just because an 01 blade is registering at 60-62 doesn't mean its a good heat treat, yeah it got hard, but at what temps, are their micro fractures within the steel etc...

every size knife and its intended purpose is different for HT, differentially and otherwise...

RC numbers just tell us we got it hardened, what lays beyond that is the HT process the maker took...

If I made a long chopper, got it as hard as I could and said it was HT right I'd probably be proven a lair when it snapped in half while chopping..

I will say this, there is a science behind it and there are some that do it better, period.. but it still boils down to how the knife will be used.....
 
Heat treating is the voodoo side of knifemaking...

That's why I like it! LOL
 
Tai, we should make and sell voodoo quenching dolls. Little self-sealing life like dolls filled with Parks 50, AAA, or canola....:D

--nathan
 
The "metallurgist/knifemaker/bladesmith/artist/alchemist/scientist/... nerd"... "bladesmith/knifemaker" is a real life "witchdoctor/wizard/magician" in this day and age.... ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...).jpg/250px-Shona_witch_doctor_(Zimbabwe).jpg

Same thing.

... and always was or ever will be... and proud of it! :)

That's what I'm saying!

Why else would we make knives with our hands, eyes,... and ears?

It's good mojo!
 
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I do it because it's good MoJO. :)

I like playing with fire, steel and oil/water,... that's all. It's not "everything" though.

I like geometry too.
 
Math and science where my best subjects in romper room and kindergarten.
 
Well, I guess I'm one of the guilty ones. I have made the statement, "It is a good steel if heat-treated properly".

Here is what happened a year-or-so ago:

A neighbor asked what type of stainless steel would hold a good edge for field dressing deer. At the time, I was using some CPM-S30V and had been having excellent results from it (Heat-treated by BOS).

He gets on-line and orders a CPM-S30V fixed-blade knife from a well known U.S. manufacturer. After field-dressing one deer, he brought the blade over for me to look at. He was quite upset with me for recommending S-30V because the edge resembled a bandsaw blade. It was chipped very badly.

I took one of my blades (similar in size, shape, and grind) of S-30V and commenced to chop through a 1" thick whitetail antler, then used it to cut the antler (as I would cut a piece of wood). There were no chips in the blade and it would still shave arm hair.

So YES, I believe that a properly heat-treated blade (according to its intended purpose) is one of the key factors in making a good working knife, regardless of what steel one might decide to use.

I have made some dang good knives, and I have made a few dang bad knives. Some were bad because of the design geometry (man, I hate that word), but more were bad because of the trials and errors of heat-treating.

Robert
 
I am sick of the term as well and was actually thinking of this the other day. It is a given if you are talking to someone with even a basic knowlege of how knives are made. It reminds me of the guys on the hunting forums who brag how accurate their rifle is and then add "if I do my part" . That is also a given. If someone is shooting from the hip for accuracy or hardening D2 with a torch, I would probably rather talk about something else with them.
 
SShepherd said:
ya..uh, not so much. I disagree.
Click to expand...

You can deny it all you want, but it won’t change the fact that (making and) heat treating knife blades is a modern day equivalent of voodoo magic from a sociological, psychological and cultural standpoint… once you realize that, I believe you will become much better at it…. However, HT is not everything, just one teeny tiny teensy weensy aspect of the overall knifemaking/bladesmithing voodoo magic process.

Just accept the facts and I’ll guarantee you, you’ll be a better, more successful knifemaker for it in the long run.

I kid you not.
 
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Tai Goo said:
You can deny it all you want, but it won’t change the fact that (making and) heat treating knife blades is a modern day equivalent of voodoo magic from a sociological, psychological and cultural standpoint… once you realize that, I believe you will become much better at it…. However, HT is not everything, just one teeny tiny teensy weensy aspect of the overall knifemaking/bladesmithing voodoo magic process.

Just accept the facts and I’ll guarantee you, you’ll be a better, more successful knifemaker for it in the long run.

I kid you not.
Click to expand...

you seem to have a problem distinguishing what is your opinion, and what is fact.

I'm not drinking your peyote kool-aid
 
Geez Tai, do you smoke that stuff every day, or just before you get on this board? I recognize that you are good at what you do, and have much expertise in blade work, and I admire your skills, but Wood Stock was a long time ago.
No SShepard, he has a problem accepting reality in lew of a fairy tale world of wizards and dragons, but he is a fine craftsman, and that cannot be denied, though his work is not to my particular taste.
 
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